Interview with Patricia Karvelas - ABC RN Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Returning to our top story, the Albanese Government has passed a massive tranche of new legislation as all sides of Parliament gear up for next year’s federal election. A flurry of deal-making means the Government will go do the polls boasting new measures on housing, migration, social media reform as well. And while that clears the way for a fresh policy agenda ahead of the election campaign, not everything got through. Electoral reforms hit the wall, environmental policies – well, rather curious shenanigans there which I have some questions about.
Murray Watt is the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations. Welcome to the program.
 
MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: G’day, Patricia. Good to be with you.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Huge night in the Senate. Is the Government now ready to fight the next election, or are you coming back in February to do more work?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, it’s certainly our expectation to come back in February, Patricia. And, as you know, there’s still some very important legislation we’d like to pass. But there’s no doubting that yesterday and last night’s effort meant that we were able to deliver a substantial package of reform for Australians to try to help people with the challenges they’re facing right now, but also to start building Australia’s future.
 
If you look at the bills that were passed yesterday, there was a very big focus on further cost of living relief; things like removing the surcharges that people pay when they use their debit cards to pay for goods at shops and things like that. We’ve introduced legislation now last night that’s about cracking down on supermarkets when they try to rip people off. Building more homes; our Build to Rent measures that passed the Senate will – we think will build about 80,000 more homes in addition to the ones that we’ve already helped fund. And, of course, there were those important safety pieces of legislation around age limits for social media and money laundering.
 
But, you know, we are pleased and we think it is a good, strong end to the year for the Government. But, more importantly, it’s a good strong end to the parliamentary year for Australians to continue helping with those cost of living pressures that people are feeling.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let’s go to the under-16s ban on social media. There is still a lot to work out about how exactly that will work. But, of course, it’s passed the Parliament. You did have bipartisan support for it. Do you expect that figures like Elon Musk, who’s already raised concerns about this, will be in the ear of Donald Trump and that this actually might cause us some problems as you’re trying to frame a relationship with Donald Trump?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I think Elon Musk has already made clear what he thinks of our world-leading legislation, and I don’t think any of us should be surprised that he has a different view to the Australian Government on these matters given he runs and owns a platform. But our focus has always been protecting Australian kids. I’m actually really excited about the fact that this is world-leading legislation and we’ve already seen there are a number of other countries around the world paying very close attention to what we’ve done here so that they can consider doing similar things to protect their kids. I think that, you know, there’s some interest about whether the tech companies will play ball on this. And we-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you expect them to?
 
MURRAY WATT: We do. We think that they will. Firstly, the legislation we’ve passed includes penalties of up to $50 million if they don’t comply. And let’s remember, what we’re saying through this legislation is that they have a duty to come up with ways to protect kids and to stop kids under 16 from having these accounts. If they don’t cooperate and if they don’t do that, then they will be gone after by the laws which allow for those penalties. But also, I think, you know, the social media companies must be starting to understand that there’s a really important reputational issue here for them. Their social licence over time is being eroded because they do allow completely inappropriate content to be aired, particularly aimed at kids. And something’s got to be done about that. So yeah, I think that they will play ball.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK, but on the part of the question that I was most interested in – you didn’t really reflect on it so I’m going to take you back there if that’s OK. Donald Trump and Elon Musk are kind of besties. They are spending a lot of time together. Clearly Elon Musk has a lot of influence on Donald Trump. We are desperately trying to establish a positive relationship with Donald Trump. Do you expect this to be an issue?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I mean, we’ll obviously talk to Donald Trump’s administration if that’s an issue that they want to talk to us about. But, you know, we’re very clear about the fact that it’s the Australian Government who makes laws to protect the Australian public and to deal with things the Australian public are concerned about. You know, we expect that there’ll be a whole range of issues to talk about with Donald Trump and his administration once he’s inaugurated in January. Of course, there are concerns around trade issues and tariff issues as well. It’s not unusual for us to have different issues with different partners around the world, and if this is something that the Trump administration has got a concern about, then we’d be happy to talk with them about it. But, as I say, we’re not backing off from the work that we’ve done to protect Australian kids and protect Australian families. I think the overwhelming majority of Australians want to see something done, and now it’s been done.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: This Nature Positive legislation, you didn’t get it passed. Will you try and pass it before the election?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, we would certainly like to see this legislation passed. Of course-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Before the election?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we wanted to see it passed yesterday. We wanted to see it passed last night.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, I don’t know if you did. OK, so let’s go to that. Because there was a deal with Tanya Plibersek. If there was a deal, why didn’t you let it pass?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, it’s the Greens party who are saying there was a deal-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: It was in writing.
 
MURRAY WATT: I haven’t seen anyone else saying that there was a deal. The Greens, just as they did with the housing issue, the Greens for months have been attaching conditions to their support which were unacceptable to us. You know, in the end, the Greens recognised that they were paying an electoral price for blocking our housing legislation-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But that’s housing. I have to bring you back to this issue.
 
MURRAY WATT: The point I’m making is that just as in the end the Greens recognised they were paying a price for blocking housing and dropped all of their demands, they needed to recognise that they needed to drop their demands for the EPA to be introduced and for this Nature Positive legislation to be introduced. Unfortunately, for reasons of their own, the Greens weren’t prepared to compromise and drop those conditions. And we thought the legislation was a strong piece of legislation as it stood-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: That’s confusing to me. There was a letter and an agreement between Tanya Plibersek and the Greens. Is that correct?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, that’s the first time I’ve heard that, Patricia. I’ve seen no letter. I’ve heard no-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: In writing? There was nothing in writing?
 
MURRAY WATT: I’ve never heard that. And-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, it’s in every single story this morning, so I don’t know.
 
MURRAY WATT: Well I’ve been doing media since pretty early this morning-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: I can send you all the stories, and actually I’ve spoken to people who say that it was in writing.
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I haven’t seen that. I haven’t seen it reported, I must admit. I haven’t heard about it. My understanding is that there have been extensive negotiations with the Greens that have gone on for some time and they simply weren’t prepared to back in the legislation as it stood. And that’s disappointing. We would have liked to have seen that legislation passed, but, as you know, we don’t have the numbers in the Senate in our own right and we need people to be prepared to compromise. They were prepared to compromise on certain other issues and we got them done, they weren’t prepared to compromise on this.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK. Well, I’ve just received in my inbox, the writing. It was in writing. I’ve got it, I’m just trying to open it up… I mean, this is the way I roll. It’s in writing. I can tell you. So maybe you’re not across it, but I can see it here in writing.
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, as I say, I’ve never seen anything in writing and I’ve never heard about anything in writing. I haven’t got that in front of me, Patricia, so I can’t comment on it-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: How is it possible that it is in writing, there was a deal and you’re telling me there was no- like, is it just that they didn’t- I’m not trying to be impolite, but, really, I don’t get it?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, you’re – with respect, you’re asking me to comment on a document that I haven’t seen, that I haven’t got in front of me. I don’t know what that document says-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But year being emphatic that it doesn’t exist. That’s my issue.
 
MURRAY WATT: What I’m saying is that there was no deal in the way that the Greens are claiming that there was. There were extensive discussions that went on, and, you know, we’ve demonstrated that we’re willing to talk with the Greens, but there are red lines that we’re not prepared to cross. We didn’t cross those red lines when it came to housing, and the Greens came to their senses. Unfortunately, that didn’t happen here. But, you know, of course, you know, we haven’t let that distract us from the fact that we’ve also wanted to make sure that we’ve delivered important cost of living relief, more housing, more safety for Australians. That’s been our focus over the last couple of weeks. And I think, you know, we’ve managed to get a lot of that done.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK. So you’re not across a deal in writing. My understanding is, and this gets more complex, that actually David Pocock as well - because it wasn’t just the Greens – also had the deal in writing.
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, again, I haven’t seen any evidence of that. I’ve never heard about that. This is the first time that’s been put to me, and I haven’t seen the document that you’re quoting from. We have made very clear that we would like to pass that piece of legislation but that the Greens in particular had conditions we were unwilling to agree to. And in the meantime-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Can you be specific?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, the most recent example is a ban on native logging across the country. And, you know, what the Greens fail to recognise is that there are some products that only can be produced using native forests at the moment. You know, over time that industry is winding down. We’ve seen it wound down in Victoria and WA. Prior to that they wanted other conditions that they eventually walked away from. But, as I say, we haven’t let that distract us from the fact that there are other issues that Australians want dealt with, most importantly, cost of living, and that’s been our key focus.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK. So given I know – and I trust my resources – that this was in writing, you’re saying you’re not aware of that but, as I say, I wouldn’t go to air and suggest something that wasn’t true. Does it suggest that if you don’t know it, it’s because you were trying to slam through too much legislation at the 11th hour and, in fact, no-one can be possibly across all of that?
 
MURRAY WATT: No, well, I haven’t personally been involved in those negotiations, it’s obviously not my portfolio. But to the broader point about what we’ve managed to pass yesterday, I don’t back away from the fact that we passed an awful lot of legislation yesterday to deal with really important issues that Australians want to see progress on. You know, for months now our legislative agenda has been held up by a hostile Senate, an Opposition and a Greens party unwilling to compromise and unwilling to support us. So it’s no surprise that that came to a head yesterday and saw a lot of that legislation passed. But I think that’s a good thing. What it means now is that because we got those bills passed, we do have age limits for social media. We will have 80,000 more homes built because of our Build to Rent legislation. We will be removing surcharges on debit cards.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK.
 
MURRAY WATT: We will be cracking down on supermarkets. I reckon that’s what Australians want to see their parliament do rather than just block things up.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But given this deal between Tanya Plibersek on the Nature Positive laws, it was ready to roll. I know you say you weren’t in those negotiations, I understand that you can’t be in every negotiation, that would be rather impossible. But given all of that, it does look like the WA Premier and all of the industry had an enormous impact on the Prime Minister withdrawing from this. I mean, the optics are terrible, aren’t they?
 
MURRAY WATT: No, I mean,  I’ve seen some claims made about different people taking credit-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: He said it on the record.
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, and I’ve seen that. I’ve seen different people taking credit for what’s happened here. The simple fact is that we had legislation available and ready to go that we couldn’t get support for. We remain willing to pass that legislation in the state that it currently is in. I’ll leave it for other people to take credit for whatever they want to do. But, again, more than anything, what we’ve been focused on over the last couple of weeks is that important cost of living relief. That’s the major thing that Australians are wanting their governments to deal with. That’s the thing that Peter Dutton and the Coalition have consistently voted against. And that’s the thing that we will be focusing on as we run up to the next election. Making sure that over the next three years Australians continue to come out of very difficult times and come out ahead with their wages growing, with inflation falling, with cost of living relief being provided and with homes being built. That’s going to be our number one focus heading into the next election.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thanks for joining us this morning.
 
MURRAY WATT: Thanks, PK.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: And that’s Murray Watt, the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations.