Interview with Cathy Van Extel, ABC RN Breakfast

CATHY VAN EXTEL: The new year is upon us and for federal political leaders in Canberra, that means one thing above all else. Yes, 2025 is an election year. With the government desperate to claw back ground from a resurgent opposition before voters head to the polls in just a matter of months. To make their case for re-election, the Albanese government will be pointing to a series of reforms already legislated and coming into effect today, including a crackdown on wage theft. Murray Watt is the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations. Happy New Year and welcome back to RN Breakfast.
 
MURRAY WATT: Good morning, Cathy. Happy New Year to you and your listeners.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL: Now, let's start with engineered stone. It's a significant one. From today, fake stone products will be stopped at the Australian border. How confident are you that law enforcement is ready for what's going to be a massive task at the borders?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, we're very confident that our law enforcement agencies are ready for this and in fact have already been doing some work to prevent the importation of engineered stone. Cathy, your listeners are probably aware that in recent years it's become clear exactly how dangerous engineered stone product is for particularly the construction workers who've had to work with it. Simply sawing through that engineered stone in order to make kitchen bench tops and other sorts of products, unfortunately has led to the death of hundreds of Australians from silicosis, which is sort of the new form of asbestosis, a disease that we thought we were getting on top of here in Australia.

So, we've taken really strong action over the last couple of years to, first of all, impose a domestic ban on the use of engineered stone. But from today, it will be illegal to import engineered stone into Australia. And this change will literally save lives. So, our government is very serious about making sure that all workers, no matter who they are, enjoy a safe workplace. And that applies to construction workers who work with these types of dangerous products as much as it does anyone else.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL: And Murray Watt, let's go to your wage theft laws. Now, from today, bosses who deliberately underpay staff can be sent to jail up to 10 years or fined $1.65 million. But what are the chances, given you've got to prove that they've deliberately acted in that fashion?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, obviously it's a high bar for any criminal prosecution to be able to reach, whether we're talking about this new offence or for existing offences in the criminal code, whether it be murder, theft, assault or anything else, there's always going to be evidence to prove that someone had intent to commit this offence. But really, this change that starts today is the next step in the Albanese government's efforts to get wages moving again. When we were elected a bit over two years ago, we said that we needed to change the 10 years of wage suppression seen under the coalition government. That's why we've made a range of changes that are now seeing real wages grow in Australia for the first time in years.

So, we've had four consecutive quarters or 12 months in a row of wages rising above inflation. But we also wanted to crack down and close some of the loopholes that existed in the laws that allowed the very small number of bosses who deliberately do the wrong thing to get away with it. So, workers have always had an opportunity in Australia to sue their boss to recover underpayments. But what we haven't had in the past is criminal penalties for those bosses who intentionally underpay their workers. And from today, that changes.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL. So, what we've seen in previous cases are companies, largely who are deliberately underpaying, are targeting some migrant workers. Would you expect that they're going to be the key offenders caught with this new criminal law?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, there's been a series of reports over the years that have shown that migrant workers in particular have suffered greatly from deliberate wage theft. So, they would certainly be one of the groups that would benefit from this. And I think all your listeners will remember that terrible 7-Eleven scandal that we saw a few years ago, where it was absolutely clear that the employers involved knew what they were doing and were ripping off those workers and were exploiting the fact that many of those workers were migrants who didn't necessarily understand their rights under Australian law.

And what this really comes down to, Cathy, is a really simple principle. It's always been the case that workers would face criminal charges if they stole from their employer. So, we think that it's only fair that employers who deliberately steal from their workers also face criminal charges as well.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL. So, some employer groups aren't happy about this. The Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry has called the laws complex and burdensome. They've accused you of overreach and have dismissed the whole thing as a sop to the unions. Will this increase the workload for good employers who aren't ripping off staff?
 
MURRAY WATT: No, I don't think it will, Cathy. I mean, as I say, most employers do the right thing. They make an effort to understand what the legal rates of paying conditions for their workers are and then they pay them. But unfortunately, we have seen some cases emerge where rogue employers have gone out of their way to knowingly underpay their staff. Now, if employer groups want to get out there and argue that bosses who deliberately underpay their workers should get away with it scot-free, then good luck to them. I think they'd have a fair bit of trouble convincing Australians that that's a fair way to go.

What we've also done in designing these laws is make very clear that honest mistakes won't be subject to criminal prosecutions. In fact, we've worked with small business groups to put together a code that small businesses can follow that takes them through the sorts of steps that they would need to undertake to ensure that they are never in a position of underpaying their workers. So, we think this is a sensible and fair move.

It is unfortunate that it wasn't just employer groups who opposed this. But when these laws went through the Parliament, we saw Peter Dutton and the coalition vote against them, as they have voted against every single change we've made to workplace laws, which have seen wages go up at a time that people desperately need those wage rises.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL: It's not just ACCI, though, that's getting increasingly vocal about your IR reforms. We saw other employer groups like the Business Council of Australia and the Minerals Council, become more vocal last year. Is this a sign that they're all lining up behind the coalition ahead of the election?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I think if you look over Australian history, it's not exactly uncommon for some of the big business groups to line up with the Coalition on wages and industrial relations reform. And we have seen, generally speaking, the various laws that we've put through that are leading to those real wage increases jointly opposed by both the coalition under Peter Dutton and by employer groups. Again, I don't think it's a real surprise that employer groups, you know, want to see the maximisation of profit for their members.

What we think as a Labor government, is that workers deserve a fair crack as well, especially at a time of cost-of-living pressures. One of the things I've been saying since I took on this role is that as important as it has been for the government to offer cost of living relief, whether it be our tax cuts, our cheaper medicines, cheaper childcare, energy rebates, those sorts of things, it's also vital that we see people's wages increase so that they can deal with those cost of living pressures.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL: So, picking up on cost-of-living pressures, then the MYEFO forecasts have the federal budget $27 billion in the red, not returning to balance for a decade. How much wriggle room will Labor have for significant new cost of living spending ahead of the election?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I think the approach that we've always taken since being in office is providing every bit of cost-of-living help that we responsibly can while maintaining a responsible budget policy as well. The fact that we've been able to record those two surpluses already demonstrates that we have taken budget management seriously to make sure that we do have a responsible policy. But we've also taken a whole range of steps to help people with cost-of-living pressures. Again, every one of those measures that we brought in was opposed by Peter Dutton and the coalition. So, people would be in a much, much worse position if Peter Dutton has got his way in blocking that cost-of-living relief, in blocking all of those wage rises that we've seen. And look you as the remainder of the term goes on, I'm sure that we'll give consideration to what more help we can provide Australians.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL. So, that's a guarantee we'll see some more cost-of-living measures being put in place.
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I don't think I went quite that far, Cathy. I think I said that, we'll obviously give consideration to what more help we can give. But even the things that we have done, I think are making a difference for people. You know, the bulk billing incentives that we've brought in to allow people to get more bulk billed appointments, the Urgent Care Clinics that have sprung up in dozens of locations around Australia are providing bulk billed appointments after hours, often for people when they've been unable to get a GP. There's a whole range of ways in which we've been trying to assist people with their cost-of-living pressures and as I say, those wage rises really matter as well.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL: And we've just got, you know, months before you need to go to the polls. How confident are you that you're going to be able to turn the ship around with a resurgent opposition?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, obviously, you know, it'll be up to your listeners to decide who wins the next election. But what I can tell you is that Anthony Albanese and Labor will be fighting every single day to demonstrate not just what we've done, but what we will be offering for people over the next three years. And I think the really important question that Australians will have before themselves on election day is who will leave them in a better position in three years than where they are now.

I think the choice will be really clear because on the one hand you've got a Labor government that not only has delivered cost of living relief and wage rises, all of which were opposed by Peter Dutton, but we've already started indicating some of the things that we would do if we're re elected, you know, the changes to HECS debts and a range of other measures, too.

And then on the other hand, you have Peter Dutton, who has a record both in government and in opposition in blocking wage rises, blocking cost of living relief, cutting Medicare. And he's already made promises before the election has started that he'll begin unwinding some of our workplace law changes, the right to disconnect, our same job, same pay laws. All of those things would go under the coalition. And what that really means is that at a time that people are already struggling, Peter Dutton and the coalition would actually make things worse.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL: I have to ask, just to wrap up, when are we going to go to the polls? We've got to go before May, sooner or later?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, there's probably only one man in Australia who knows the answer to that question, and it's not me, Cathy. But what I can say is, you know, we've been working very hard over the last few months to make sure that we're ready. I think it'll be good for everyone that the speculation about what year the election is going to occur can now come to an end. We know it's going to be 2025 and as I say, I think when we get to that point, Australians will have a really clear choice about who will ensure that they are enjoying better living standards in three years' time. And I think we'll be working very hard to make sure the choice is clear that it's Labor.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL: Murray Watt, thank you for your time this morning.
 
MURRAY WATT: Thanks, Cathy. Good to talk.
 
CATHY VAN EXTEL: Murray Watt is the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations on Radio National Breakfast.