Podcast interview - IPAA Work with Purpose podcast

EPISODE AVAILABLE HERE: https://act.ipaa.org.au/ipaa-podcast/trust-and-pride-in-service-with-the-hon-patrick-gorman-mp/
 
DAVID PEMBROKE, HOST: Hello and welcome to Work with Purpose, a podcast about the Australian public sector and how it serves the Australian people. My name is David Pembroke, thanks for joining me. I come with good news. In 2025, 62% of Australians said they trust the Australian Public Service, according to the Trust in Australian Public Services 2025 Annual Report. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme and Medicare provide the most trusted services in our country. 

And on Work with Purpose we are continuing to feature stories of excellence. Just last month, we spoke to the team behind the urgent care clinics, a bulk bill service launched in 2023 that bridges a critical gap between GP care and emergency departments. Today, we want to look at a few more examples of innovation and outstanding service shown in the recent Australian Public Service Roadshow. From learning the lessons from Robodebt to implementing artificial intelligence.

Well, my guest today is a returning guest on Work with Purpose, the Assistant Minister Patrick Gorman, the Member for Perth, and he is also the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Assistant Minister for the Public Service and Assistant Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations. Prior to Parliament, Patrick served as a Principal Adviser to Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and the State Secretary of the Labor Party in Western Australia. He joins me in the studio once again. Assistant Minister, thank you for joining me on Work with Purpose.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: David, please call me Patrick. Great to be back on the podcast. 

PEMBROKE: So, Patrick, we were just having a bit of a chat before we got on air, you were here in 2024. It's now 2026, a lot has happened in that time. What are, say, the two or three highlights for you in terms of the public service and what you've seen in terms of its development and application in that time?

GORMAN: I would say the highlight for me in terms of the work I have done with Minister Katy Gallagher has been getting that public service reform bill through the Parliament. And that has given the base on which we can build that greater level of quality in public services for the public, but also continue to increase capability in the public service. 

And then I would say, on the practical side, it is seeing that roll out, and seeing how that legislation is now connecting to the work that public servants are doing and we had that conversation during the State of the Service Roadshow.

PEMBROKE: In terms, then, of that capability building, where is that on its journey? Where do you see it in term of the work of the Academy and the other elements of improvement and capability uplift that you've put in place?

GORMAN: One of the things that was required in that bill was to have the capability reviews. Getting independent reviewers into public service agencies, to look under the hood, see what is working and see what is not working as well as you might expect. being Pretty frank and open about what needs to be improved. 

We have even done that for the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet. So, we did that at the end of last year, we got that report. And that has been pretty open about some of the things that need to improve at our central policymaking agency to uplift standards, so that we can deliver those services and policy outcomes the Australian people expect of us. 

PEMBROKE: Are there any themes that have emerged from these capability reviews that are recurring themes that would identify, not just areas of challenge and opportunity, but of excellence as well? 

GORMAN: I think what you do see is an ongoing reflection that public servants are keen for capability uplift, that is us investing in them and their skills and training. Equally, the big challenges of information communication technologies. And, not just the costs they put on the public service, but making sure that we are getting good value for money out of those products, is a recurring theme. 

I think the positive thing that we see is how people engage in those reviews. Where you have people who are genuinely interested in the outcomes of those reviews, they speak very openly with the reviewers. There is lots of engagement across all levels of the public service, and we are doing them for every department, and we will do them again and again and again.  

I would encourage all of your listeners, when it happens in your department, to make sure that you do engage. Make sure that you do take the opportunity to have your say. Because one of the things that often surprises me, and we are talking about the APS Census and the work that we do to go and listen to public servants. One of the problems in that process is we have got 198,000 public servants - some 48,000 of them choose not to respond to the Census.  We make decisions on the basis of what public servants tell us. This is the information we use.  I don't know the reasons -

PEMBROKE: I was going to say - has anyone given a reason as to why such a significant number wouldn't participate?

GORMAN: I think sometimes people are in high pressure environments and they are really focused on the service delivery piece. And I understand that the questions we ask, we are taking time from other priorities. But we do really encourage people from all parts of the public service to take the opportunity to have their say, and we will be doing that again this year.

If we can get more responses, it gives us a better picture of what is working and gives us a more honest account of what needs improvement. I think one of the things we all accept, whether you are on the side that I am as an elected Member of Parliament, or the side of the public service, we are all interested in continuous improvement. The only way we can do that is through engagement.

PEMBROKE: Well, there you go, people who are listening. I suppose it's up to everyone to encourage others to fill it out as well, to build a culture of acceptance and importance and get people to understand that by filling out the Census they are going to be making a contribution to better public services.

GORMAN: One hundred per cent. It is also a challenge for leaders to encourage their teams to do it, and for peer-to-peer leadership, encourage your colleagues to do it. It does not take that long, and it is the data set on which we measure whether our services are heading in the right direction and where we need to improve.

PEMBROKE: You recently attended the annual State of the Service Roadshow, which does showcase the findings of the annual State of the Service Report and the APS Employee Census. What were some of your personal highlights or reflections of what you saw there from the Roadshow?

GORMAN: One of the things that I reflected on is I often say that public servants aren't somewhere else. Public servants are our family, they are our neighbours, they are our friends. And one of the things I was able to do was to share a few of the stories from my own life, of that being true. We did one of the roadshows in Brisbane at the Brisbane Convention Exhibition Centre. That is just up the road from where my wife used to work for Services Australia.

And it was an opportunity for me to say to the public servants who were in the room there, that I recognise all the career benefits that my wife got from working in the public service. And also that the public service is not always someone's entire career, but it is always a piece of their career they are proud of, and that is definitely the case with Jess.

PEMBROKE: In terms, then, of activity or elements of excellence that you may have identified at the State of the Service, was there anything that caught your eye? Any particular programs or activities that particularly caught your attention?

GORMAN: I did have a good chat to the team from Border Force who were at the Brisbane State of the Service Roadshow. They were really proud of the work that they do in keeping their fellow Australians safe. 

When we were in Adelaide, we had some people who are really putting the pressure on Government to make sure that we are continuing the work that we are already doing when it comes to cultural and linguistic diversity in the public service. There was real enthusiasm for the roadmap that we put out there to make sure that we do have a public service that looks like what Australia looks like in 2026. I found that really encouraging.

PEMBROKE: That is a huge issue, isn’t it, that culturally and linguistically diverse? When you look at the numbers in terms of the diversity of languages that are spoken in the home, it really shows that Australia is a multicultural society. And we really do need to get on top of that diversity in communication and languages such that the messages are reaching our fellow Australians.

GORMAN: We definitely do. I was talking to some Services Australia staff at the Adelaide roadshow, and they were saying how much it helps them in delivering the services that they do. Where they have people who can speak other languages, help people who might be in struggling with some of the online pieces or other pieces of engaging with public services. And I think it also gives a great appreciation for where people are coming from, the experiences they've had and what their family dynamics might be. 

We have got a really ambitious goal of uplifting – we have got pretty good cultural diversity in the public service as a whole, about 26% of the public service - but we have got some gaps when it comes to the senior levels of the public service. Where often it is where you are making policy and you are making serious decisions. And so, making sure that that senior level of the public service reflects what the rest of the public service looks like.

PEMBROKE: But you have some interventions in place to improve that?  We have interviewed people on Work with Purpose, who are involved in those roles, in terms of trying to address those issues of senior leadership with people with those backgrounds. Can you give us any indication as to how they are working at the moment, those interventions?  Are we getting more people and more diversity, more culturally and linguistically diverse leaders into those senior roles?

GORMAN: It is definitely in the category of ‘there's more to do but we're heading in the right direction.’ What we do have is we have got improvements in our recruitment practices, which are helping make sure that we have fair and open recruitment practices. We have also set some really clear targets for Secretaries in terms of what we expect their departments to look like over the next five years. And so, we will continue to do that work. And the reason we are doing it is because we know that when we do this work, we end up with better policy outcomes and better policy advice and better service design and better service delivery. Ultimately that means that we get good services to more Australians at lower cost.

PEMBROKE: So, you tell the story of your wife, who was once in Services Australia in Brisbane, and you attended Brisbane, and then you attended Adelaide. From a personal, emotional perspective for yourself, when you were there and you were observing these things, how did that make you feel about the work of the Australian Public Service?

GORMAN: Really proud, because you look out at the crowd and you don't just see a monoculture, you don't just see one department. Often, when you are only dealing day to day with one or two departments in your day to day work as an Assistant Minister, you get to know people quite well. And you look out at these crowds and saw 400 people who, yes, they are there during their work hours, but I know that when they go back to their desks afterwards, all the work is still there for them to do. And you see just this great diversity of Australia. You see people from all walks of life.

But the thing that unites them is that commitment to those public service values. And also this idea that it is an incredibly patriotic thing to do to be a public servant. You are really giving up so much of your own time, and you are giving your all to make sure that your fellow Australians get the services that they deserve. 

PEMBROKE: Something else that unites all of them is the opportunity and the challenge of artificial intelligence and integrating new technologies into their workflows, into their mindsets, how they understand it, how they think about it. Just one example in the public service, at the Australian Taxation Office, they are now using real time nudging to help taxpayers fill out their returns correctly. Thinking about AI and the application of AI as the Assistant Minister in charge of the public service, how are you thinking about AI and the role it can play in the delivery of services to the Australian people? 

GORMAN: I try to bring it back to its most fundamental purpose of: what is AI? And AI is just a massive expansion in computing power, and why would you not want to use that massive expansion in computing power to improve services for people? 

That is my starting point when it comes to the discussion about AI. My second thing is, I always say that public servants should use AI because, as your example just demonstrates, we have been using artificial intelligence in the public service for a long period of time to make people's lives better. 

Just two examples from Home Affairs. They were a leader when they brought in Smart Gates to reduce time that people use spend when they are at the airport trying to get home after an international trip. That is AI that has made a difference to people's everyday life. 

Then they are using AI when it comes to the scanning of mail packages coming into Australia, trying to detect illicit drugs. Again, improving the lives of Australians, getting those drugs off the streets, and making sure that our Border Force staff, some of whom I met on the Roadshow, can be doing more in person work at our various security checkpoints. 

We have got these good examples of things where it is working and we are already doing it. The other piece is just to remember that no matter what technology you're using, whether it's a smartphone, a laptop, artificial intelligence, the Public Service values and the rules of the Public Service apply equally. 

You cannot say that it's the fault of the technology. The responsibility always lies with the individual public servant. And that is why the guidance that Katy Gallagher launched at the end of last year, around trying to make sure that it's clear how to have safe and responsible use of AI in the public sector, is so important.

PEMBROKE: In the conversations, though, that you're having with leaders in the Australian Public Service, what are they finding difficult? Or what are the challenges to really getting that uplift and that usage across? Because the examples that you give are clear and they're obvious, and the benefits are there, but not everybody is in those particular roles. Some other people are doing all sorts of different roles inside the Australian public sector. 

So are there any sort of common challenges that are coming to you, where people are saying:  ‘Look, this is just too difficult for us at the moment. We can't do it. It's too risky.’ Perhaps some of our workforce are not that keen on embracing it, for whatever reason that there might be?

GORMAN: Security of data, and making sure that you are appropriately using that data, is a concern that regularly comes up. I think we have to deal with that in a whole range of other ways already. So, everything from checking who you are sending an email to, so you are not sending confidential data outside of an organisation. To we don't have that many USB drives used in the public service anymore because we want to make sure data is appropriately managed and restricted. 

So, all of those things we already deal with, we have just got to deal with it with a new technology. 

The other one is about platforms. There are lots of different artificial intelligence platforms. Many of them are promising to solve every problem you've ever had for just one simple monthly fee. The reality is, they're not all perfect. And they're not all appropriate for the work that the public service does. That is one of the reasons we have started building the GovAI platform, which will start to enable chat bots that are on government servers with all of the restrictions, and allow for further experimentation. So that we can get benefits that are for the Australian people, and uniquely for Australia. We will continue doing that work. We have had a range of different trials that have happened over the last few years, which have given departments a good sense -

PEMBROKE: What are some of those?

GORMAN: We had the Microsoft AI Copilot trial that a few thousand public servants engage in looking at all of the different use cases. And that then rolled into the work that the Digital Transformation Authority have been doing when it comes to rolling out further artificial intelligence in the public service. 

That trial, from memory, showed that you can save up to about an hour a day in terms of general administrative tasks for those who are using the tools and have also been trained on the tools appropriately. 

I think that is one of the things, most of the computers that we have sitting on our desks can do far more than any of us know how to do, because we have not received the necessary training to use different pieces of software. Artificial Intelligence is no different. 

But what I also hope is that in reducing some of those administrative pieces of work, we can allow more time for the deep thinking. And that deep thinking for some of the really difficult public policy problems is best done by humans who have been trained at our universities, who have been trained in the public service. Who might have gone through one or two APS Academy courses, and giving them more time to do that work, that is a good thing. That is a goal worth us reaching for.

PEMBROKE: How about yourself? How are you going with AI? The incredibly busy life of an Assistant Minister - and you've got plenty of roles there - how is AI going about changing the way you do your job?

GORMAN: In quite a few different ways. I do think it's an excellent research tool. It is a great way to start to engage in a new piece of content. Or if you are learning about maybe a politician from history, and you're trying to find a voting record or something, sometimes now it's easier to ask artificial intelligence to find you an original source. And I am still a huge believer in wanting original sources. 

I know that some of the things that Google and other platforms will tell you through AI generation isn't always right. Sometimes you have got to call out the AI chat bot and say: ‘I don't think that's right.’ And it will tell you: ‘That's right, Patrick, I did tell you some poor information.’ 

The other piece is being able to know that you can then collate large pieces of information, public source information, and get to the point of what someone is trying to say quickly. Because sometimes you have someone coming for a meeting, and then they say, ‘Oh, and here's our submission to a parliamentary inquiry from two years ago.’ And you go, well, ‘thank you. You know it well because you wrote it. I have only received it five minutes ago, and I'm about to walk into a meeting.’ So, there are really practical tools like that. 

I think the other thing that I have started to realise is I'm now also more likely to question things that are put to me. If you see a report and you can tell that it has been written by artificial intelligence, I will then probably question whoever is pushing that report around even harder. I think it has also given some really good opportunities when it comes to the public service for new forms of collaboration with our friends in the region. Because, again, we see some really exciting things happening from other national governments and being able share ideas and share insights on what's working and what's not. That gives us - 

PEMBROKE: What are some examples? Could you give us a couple of examples of that inter-relationship, that conversation, that collaboration with local government?

GORMAN: I have had conversations with a range of ministers in Singapore's Government about some of the platforms that they have built internally that they then use. It has made a huge difference in terms of how they've been able to manage their public service, and also in terms of being able to manage information within the public service. Particularly when it comes to capturing knowledge and transferring knowledge, which is always one of those big challenges in the public service as people move from role to role. They have done a big piece of work there that's quite impressive. 

I think there's also pieces where we are really proudly happy to share some of the courses and tools that we have from the APS Academy for some of our friends in the region. One of the things I really believe is that you don't really understand something until you can teach it. Giving public servants the opportunity to share insights with friends in the region is a great opportunity to make sure that we have better understanding of how these tools are transforming our work.

PEMBROKE: Now the Roadshow and Report also highlighted some of the unique and innovative ways that the public sector is serving remote, rural and regional communities across Australia. Which, unlike Singapore, is a very big place. Services Australia is running several temporary service centres across the nation to ensure people can access the support that they need. Can you tell us a little bit more about that work?

GORMAN: What always impresses me is that there are always public servants willing to put their hand up and say: ‘Yep, I'm happy to go away from family for two or three weeks at a time and go and deliver in person services in remote parts of Australia.’ 

We often talk about that in the context of natural disasters, where there might have been a fire or a flooding event and you do see Services Australia in their blue shirts out there delivering services to people who have gone through just the most horrible of times. But it also happens where we try to make sure that those in-person services are available really wherever you live, making sure there are those supports. 

For me I try to make sure I get out not just to the Services Australia sites, not just in the cities, that's obviously where we have the large supercentres delivering services. Today, I'm in Canberra. Tomorrow, I'm in Northam, about an hour’s drive out of Perth, the big fringe of the Wheatbelt town. A big service centre for making sure that billions of dollars’ worth of grain and people who work in agriculture in Western Australia can get all the services they need. The way I think of Northam is that Northam is about six hours away from a Departmental Secretary. It is a bit of a distance.

So, I really enjoy going and talking to public servants out in the regions delivering services. I have been to Geraldton and met with social workers who are working through Services Australia.

I have been out on the boats with Border Force in Port Hedland having a chat about some of the challenges they have. In terms of making sure they're doing their border security job but also in terms of facilitating massive amounts of trade when it comes to our iron ore industry.

I have been down to Launceston and had a great chat to the Services Australia team who are co-located with the NDIA. We have people wherever they are in Australia doing incredible work, often in a very humble way, just trying to help their fellow Australians. 

PEMBROKE: Is there any anything common that generally comes up, whether it be in Tasmania or be it in Northam or other places, are there themes that keep coming up, when you speak to Australia's public servants?
GORMAN: I think they recognise just how essential their role is and that brings a huge sense of pride. A sense that, without them providing sometimes those really life changing moments.

If you think about maybe helping people with a paid parental leave claim or getting their pension – they are big moments. And wherever you are in this country, if that's something that's happening in your life, it's a big moment, and the Services Australia staff and other public servants are always happy to be a part of that. They always raise there's more need. And I think that's the other thing  -

PEMBROKE: How do you deal with that, when they say: ‘Minister, great to have you here but we need more, we've got too much demand for the resourcing that we can deliver to people’?

GORMAN: Firstly, that is normally a conversation in the context of us having already made some pretty large investments in the public service. And in making sure that we are trying to bring those wait times down, but also, I appreciate it.

Their job is to tell me what they're seeing on the ground. I don't try and shut down those conversations. The reason I go and do the State of the Service Roadshow is to make sure that people can give their genuine views.

PEMBROKE: They can also see you, which I think is important.

GORMAN: I always commit because I am the Assistant Minister for the Public Service but I'm not the Minister responsible for those particular line agencies - I always commit to pass it on to the relevant colleague. Because that is what we need to do, is to make sure that that information comes back and forward.

And one of the things I really like about the Albanese Government is that we have listened to the public service. We have listened to them in terms of getting their input into a range of different bits of policy development. We did huge consultation on that public service reform agenda. Now, the State of the Service Roadshow, they are big events, and then we do the big online town hall to make sure that everyone has genuinely been invited. 

We had, I think, about 8000 on the line for the one that we did just last month. That is about making sure that we really do, not just do the listening, but show the listening, which I think is also about modelling what I expect from senior leaders in the public service. If there are acute needs that needs to be dealt with in different parts of the public service, I don't want them to just tell me, because I happen to be there for a visit. I expect that dialogue is happening all the time, so we're allocating our precious resources as effectively as possible.

PEMBROKE: So, as the Assistant Minister for the Public Service, when if you look sort of two, three years down the track, what changes would you like to see? How would you like it to be different to how it is today?

GORMAN: What I would hope is that we have increasing status of the profession or the vocation of a public servant. I think we benefit more as a country when we talk ourselves up than when we talk down different bits of Australia. So, I would hope that we have people recognising that these are essential jobs that make a huge - disproportionate - difference for the cost. A disproportionate difference to the welfare of the nation.

I would hope that we have the capability necessary to deal with the incredibly difficult problems that we know are over the horizon for Australia and making sure that as we face those challenges, we have the very best thinking and the very best policy advice.

PEMBROKE: But what would you see as those major issues on the horizon that the government and the public service is really going to have to be ready for? 

GORMAN: We have been talking about artificial intelligence in the context of what it means for the public service as a workforce. Artificial intelligence will change the way that our economy is structured. It will change the way that work is conducted in some industries, and I want to make sure that's done in a way that benefits Australians. 

We talk about climate change and action on climate change as being the biggest economic change since the Industrial Revolution. I always think of climate action and a low to zero carbon economy as a bigger change than the internet. It is a bigger change than the space race. That is how big it is. If we are saying it's as big as the Industrial Revolution. So that is just change that's not just happening in Australia. These are changes that are happening globally. 

And again, we have had some reminders in just the last few weeks about the importance of different types of energy security. And so having more sovereign capability when it comes to energy is always something that I think people will welcome at any time, but I think we've had a little bit of a reminder of that recently. 

And then you just look to the world, and while I would always hope that we find ways for diplomacy and dialogue, you can't avoid that. We have seen a range of regional conflicts in recent years. I would hope that we have the best thinking possible to make sure that we can protect Australia's interests and also do our part to be, as Australia has always been, a voice for peace and a voice for ensuring that we recognise that there's so much more of our common humanity that unites people than divides them.

PEMBROKE: It is interesting isn't it, because increasingly, a lot of these super complex issues require a whole of government, whole of nation, approach, which the government has spoken about on a number of occasions. In terms of not only national defence, but other issues. What role do you see the public service playing in initiating and facilitating these whole of government, whole of nation, responses to these massively complex challenges and issues that we face?

GORMAN: They are often the ones who are monitoring some of these big challenges more closely than any other part of Australian society. And they have that ability to look at it not from a business interest or from a particular corner of the country, but they have to look at it from the national interest. And we have seen when you harness the power of the government, you can take significant shifts on big public challenges. 

For the public service, one of the other really important things we need to do is to make sure that they are finding new ways to engage with communities, with business, with non-government organisations. One of the things we did on the sidelines of the State of the Service Roadshow was host some business roundtables. Co-hosted by myself, the Public Service Commission and the Business Council of Australia. That was not just having business in the room, we had senior public service leaders as well. talking about some of these big issues and recognising that some of them are bigger than just the public service and they are bigger than just the businesses they might be predominantly affecting.

PEMBROKE: How do we mature that? How do we mature that engagement and communication to such a way that we are more able to respond? Because, as you say, nobody owns it all. Everyone has a piece of it. But how do we get better at being able to deliver whole of government, whole of nation, responses?

GORMAN: I think the first step of any policy cycle is always identifying what the problem is that you're trying to solve. Sometimes there are lots of issues and ideas and news floating around, but - what is the public policy problem you're trying to solve? That is a fundamental step to developing good policy. 

I know some of your academic listeners will be like, ‘Yes, Patrick, we know that's the start of the cycle.’ Sometimes you need a statement of the obvious before you go any further. Then recognising, ‘okay, if this is the problem we're trying to solve, who is involved in that solution?’ 

Very rarely is the only organisation involved in that solution the public service. And that means that you have to be talking really early on in the public policy development process to get the best outcome. 

And for complex delivery challenges, you do need to be talking to business. Citizens do not exist in a vacuum. Just as they are citizens who expect services from the government, they are also people who have bank accounts with major banks. They are also people who buy services from major telcos. They are also people who work for, anything from service companies to transport companies to large resource companies. They exist in all of those worlds. 

And so sometimes, you have a better joined-up citizen experience if we are trying to provide a service that is as good as - say you're designing a new digital service, I would like our digital service to be as good, if not better, than the digital service someone is receiving from their bank.

PEMBROKE: As a public service, is your view that we are getting better at that, getting better at being able to bring in more diverse views into that policy development? That response? That we're leveraging the strength of the of the private sector to help us solve problems, difficult problems?

Covid, I think was a great example of where, in crisis, we really get our act together, and can get the act together pretty quickly - on both sides. But it's that sustaining of those types of attitudes of collaboration and cooperation that perhaps once the crisis is over, we all sort of go back to our corners and get back to being busy about what's in front of us.

GORMAN: I would say that you saw some of those lessons during Covid, and you have seen that change the way the public service, which is often the convener or the leader of some of those conversations, you have seen that change. One good example we have seen just in the last week are the roundtables that are happening, both at a Commonwealth and at various state levels, around fuel supply.

Everyone wants the same thing - which is for Australians to be able to get the fuel they need when they need it, as they have done for years and years. But you have got the public service convening some of those forums. You have got a range of different businesses, who are different parts of that quite complex supply chain we have here in Australia. And I do see some of those lessons having been learned. 

One of the things that came out was an OECD report when it comes to digital government. It came out during the State of the Service Report, and so I was able to use it – jam it into my speech - where we were ranked second in the world for digital government.  I cannot remember where we were, but I can tell you, a few years ago, we weren't second.

PEMBROKE: That is, well, that's an outstanding result. What do you put that down to? What are your views on why we've made such improvement in that OECD ranking?

GORMAN: It is in part because of significant investments that have been made. I think it's also - as you have more citizens using those services online, it allows you to free up resources to invest more in improving the quality of those services. And also uplift the service for those who might not be in a position to use those digital services. You do actually have, and there's not that many times, but it's one of those times you really do have a ‘win-win.’ And everyone wins in getting better service from government. 

I would also say that we have increased over time, you see more and more mobile first approaches from government. We were sitting here ten years ago, and a lot of government services were really quite desktop-based, and it was hard to interact with government digitally unless you were sitting at a desktop. And that really has changed to some more mobile first approaches, which makes a difference, particularly for really simple things where people just need to provide a report, do a Medicare claim.  We do now - 1.2 million Medicare claims are processed in Australia every day, 1.2 million.

PEMBROKE: And how many of those on mobile?

GORMAN: Sorry, I don't know that. I know that I've done them for my kids on mobile. Because it is the easiest way. Take a photo of the thing that didn't process when you're at the doctor's surgery, upload it all, and they're processed incredibly quickly.

PEMBROKE: When I read that introduction and I said that 62% of Australians say they trust the Australian Public Service, the result of the Trust in Australian Public Services Report. How did you feel when you heard 62% did you think that's good? That's more to be done. How did you react to that 62% number?

GORMAN: It is probably where my profession and my ambition differ. If you get 62% in politics, you are normally pretty happy, I would say. 
But when it comes to trust in government, I think we recognise that democracy is always fragile. And there are forces in the world in which we live who are deeply anti-democratic. And so, anything we can do to get that trust score up, is also part of defending our democracy. 

What I would also say is I think trust is built when it comes to public services, it is built in the boring bits. It is built just in making sure that when someone goes into a Services Australia office, they have a good experience. When someone calls up and says they're having a problem with their veterans package, someone calls them back. That is how you build trust. Trust isn't out there in the ether, looking to be found. It is built interaction by interaction, person by person. And that is why, again, I think uplifting the capability of the public service and uplifting the respect for the public service in the public's mind, is key to making sure that we can get those trust scores up. I actually would say the public service I know is far better than 62%. I think we have got the best public service in the world. So, I think we are better than 62%. 

You mentioned it as well, one of the really trusted parts of the Public Service is the Australian Passport Office, they rank at about around 80% trust, which is incredible. When we released the Trust in Public Services Report, I actually went and visited the passport office in Sydney. Busy place. Lots of people doing very detailed work. Where obviously it's a key part of helping Australians be safe abroad and be able to travel abroad, but also a key part of making sure we have a system that protects us all. And they were really proud of the work they did, really happy to share. They did let me, under supervision, and consistent with the Passports Act, they did, let me press the ‘print’ button on a passport. And that was pretty exciting as well.

PEMBROKE: Did you hand it over to the person who was there?

GORMAN: No, I didn't. 

PEMBROKE: That would have been a good moment.

GORMAN: At least I know that it was printed first time, without fail.

PEMBROKE: In your answer there, you have just sparked something. As the Assistant Minister, how do you feel about misinformation and disinformation and the challenges of bad actors who, as you say, are wilfully undermining trust as best as they possibly can? How do you think about that in your role, not only as the Assistant Minister the Public Service, but also Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister? 

GORMAN: I think we have seen challenges with misinformation, disinformation, effectively false content and falsely-branded content online. We have been seeing that for a number of years now. One of the things I have seen is that the Australian public has started to click that maybe not every person you see speaking on your Facebook stream is actually a real person, or what they're saying is actually true. 

I think we have all learned to be a little bit more sceptical. Just as 20 years ago, you would get a weird phone call telling you that you just won a prize for something. You would be like, ‘this doesn't sound quite right. I'm not going to hand over my credit card.’ Then we had the avalanche of scam texts and things, and we have really clamped down on that as a government. 

I think the misinformation piece is just the next thing for people to think twice before you act on something, or before you accept it as true. I also think it has made some people more hungry for genuine human connection. That is one of the things – again if we talk about doing the big town hall meetings that we have just done for the State of the Service Roadshow, that is really enjoyable because you're actually you're there. And maybe my answers aren't as polished as if you had an AI bot version of myself there, but at least it gets people thinking on their feet, talking on their feet. 

I think that's one of the reasons I really love the work I get to do in Parliament. Because it is people interacting with other people to make decisions about people, and you can't remove that or substitute it with a digital clone.

PEMBROKE: A final question, trust, obviously very important, but so too, integrity. Robodebt is now several years in the past, and since the conclusion of the Robodebt Royal Commission in 2023. How do you feel the public service has progressed towards building that ‘speak up’ culture in the last three years, because certainly Robodebt has deeply scarred the public service in many ways?

GORMAN: What I have seen is public servants who have been willing to step up and take even more responsibility. And for that, I say a huge thank you. We have seen, in terms of recommendations out the Royal Commission, a recognition of the importance of frontline work, and also having senior leaders engage in frontline work. One of the things I would always encourage anyone is: don't wait to be forced to go and do a bit of frontline work, or sit down with someone within your agency to actually engage, go and find that way to do it. 

We also have, of course, implemented the additional value of Stewardship, which is about making sure that we do have a recognition that public servants aren't just dealing with the here and now. They are dealing with the long term challenges facing Australia and the long term opportunities, as well.

PEMBROKE: Well, Assistant Minister, Patrick, thank you for joining us once again. Let's not keep it too long until we get you back and continue to celebrate. The Spirit of Service Awards are fantastic, aren’t they? And the other awards where we get to see fantastic work done by our public servants. They are so vital to the quality of life in Australia, that we really do need a robust, strong, highly capable public service delivering.

GORMAN: There is so much good happening that if we can find things like the Spirit of Service Awards, which celebrate the good, and share that good. Where often it is quiet things happening that no one else knows about. This is a great way, through those awards, of sharing the good and making sure that other parts of the public service see what is possible, and that is one of the ways we can sort of uplift capability across the service.

PEMBROKE: It is almost a personality thing with the public service, they are a bit shy and they don't want to big note themselves too much. And they don't want to be drawing attention to themselves because that's not the task. Their job is to get on and deliver the services.

But I think we do, culturally, if we could get more of a celebration of the great work that's done. And it is not just to other public servants, it is to the wider Australian community, such that people can understand – which I think they do, intuitively, as you have answered - the value of the public service. I think we need to be better at telling people about just how good we are.

GORMAN: People connect with stories. People connect with stories. So, if we can tell good stories about just one little slice of the great work that public service is doing through the Spirit of Service Awards, that's a good thing, and there should be more of it.

PEMBROKE: I'm sure you'll be doing that today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, as you continue on your work. Patrick, thank you so much for coming into the studio today. Delighted to share a bit of time in a very, very busy program for the Assistant Minister. I'm sitting here opposite the Minister, and you can just see the pride in his face, the fact that he does have responsibility for the Australian Public Service. So, get out there and take on that message of filling out the Census, people. It can’t be that hard! That is a big gap in the quality of the data. It's something, as Patrick says, the government needs - the better the quality of the data, the better decisions that they can make. A big thanks for him coming in today, and a big thanks to you also coming back to Work with Purpose once again. If you have any questions or any suggestions that you would like to make, please drop us a line at Content Group or at IPAA ACT on LinkedIn, or you can email us at events@act.ipaa.org.au.

Now before we let you go, if you're part of an outstanding initiative in the public sector, make sure you nominate for the IPAA ACT Spirit of Service awards. Nominations are now open across four categories: learning, breakthrough, collaboration, and community engagement. So, make sure you jump online and have a look at that. Work with Purpose is produced in collaboration between Content Group and the Institute of Public Administration Australia. If you do have time for a rating or a review, it will help us to be found. It doesn't take long and we have lots of reviews there, but if you could do that, I would be forever grateful. We will be back with our next edition of Work with Purpose in a fortnight. But for the moment, my name is David Pembroke, and it's bye for now.

ENDS