Interview with Patricia Karvelas - ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Let's bring in the political panel for today. Zoe McKenzie is the Assistant Shadow Early Learning Minister, and Patrick Gorman is the Assistant Employment Minister. Welcome to both of you. Just want to start on integrity, because it's been a big issue today and more broadly. Patrick, the Albanese Government has fared pretty poorly here. Actually doing worse than the Morrison Government. That's pretty embarrassing, isn't?
 

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Actually, I am really proud of what we have just heard from Minister Farrell. Those reforms that we put through last year when it comes to uplifting integrity in our electoral system, the biggest reforms to our electoral system in 40 years. That is a good thing. It is about giving more information to voters. 

KARVELAS: That's one thing.

GORMAN: That's one thing.

KARVELAS: This report is about a lot of other things, FOI changes, all of that is there. If there is a concern from such an important group that's done this assessment, surely you're worried about it?

GORMAN: I take integrity very seriously, and I am really proud to be part of a government that both promised to deliver a National Anti-Corruption Commission and actually delivered one. We saw a few governments before us who had promised a few things that never actually happened.

KARVELAS: So you think there were no issues with integrity?

GORMAN: Well, I think it is always an important discussion to have. We have been a government that's really open to having those discussions. We opened that conversation in the parliament last year around electoral reform. We opened it in the first six months of our government, when it came to the National Anti-Corruption Commission, and we've been opening that conversation about some of the challenges in freedom of information, but also the important principle that people should be able to get their own information from government departments. 

KARVELAS: Zoe, clearly, the government has some issues, but the Morrison Government, was not good according to the integrity analysis, either, I think it's fair to say, although they did worse in that report -

ZOE MCKENZIE, MEMBER FOR FLINDERS: We didn't move to shut down FOI in the way they have in terms of imposing high expenses for those who want to seek freedom of information, banning anonymous requests, rejecting some out of hand if it's going to take more than 40 hours to find the information -

KARVELAS: Some of the changes, though, they do say, are because international agents are kind of stacking the system, that it's vexatious. That's some of the arguments they make. You don't buy it? 

MCKENZIE: No, I don't. I've never seen or heard anyone complain about vexatious FOI claims, but I have seen lots of fights against FOI claims. Including the ones on the front page of The Australian today relating to the incoming Minister's brief for the Minister for Climate Change that the Senate has had to pursue rigorously in order to get to see what, in fact, was suggested, which is that, guess what, energy is going to cost more in this country as a result.

KARVELAS: Well, that's perfect segue to go to the Tomago Smelter and what might be needed. Is any price okay for saving those jobs?

GORMAN: It's a thousand workers, and it's pretty tough news for them today to hear that they are looking at what the future of that operation is. I, by my nature, am an optimist, and I also want to make sure that every opportunity, from what the New South Wales Government can do, from what Rio Tinto can do to make sure that that operation remains open. And of course, as you've had Minister Tim Ayres sitting here just a few moments ago, talking about the Australian Government being happy to look at what we can do. 

I think when it comes to the challenges of getting affordable energy to industry and to manufacturing and processing, we know that getting more renewable energy into our grids is the best way forward, and we'll continue to pursue that, because we know that that's what's going to back industry across the country. 

KARVELAS: Are you in favour of the bailout?

MCKENZIE: I think I've lost track of how many bailouts this government has now committed to. You cannot end up in a situation where Australian industry is either partially owned or almost fully subsidised by the Australian Government. 

KARVELAS: So are you against the concept of a bailout for this? 

MCKENZIE: Oh, I think we need to save Australian industry, but not by handouts. We need to save them by making energy cheaper. Wind and solar alone, which is the Bowen plan for blackouts in this country, will not suffice to be the backbone of Australian industry. 

KARVELAS: But you can't magic that up, and it doesn't happen overnight. This is an immediate problem -

MCKENZIE: You can commit to gas overnight. 

KARVELAS: This is a -

MCKENZIE: You can do more in terms of gas, and more in terms of existing assets.

KARVELAS: In terms of getting it into the system, the idea that you're going to see a sort of radical reduction in energy prices is, you know -

MCKENZIE: But when you committed to a 62 to 70 per cent reduction in carbon emissions by 2035 you are condemning your industry to death.

KARVELAS: Okay, but do you believe that this, in an immediate way, should be bailed out? 

MCKENZIE: It's a thousand immediate jobs and 5000 jobs that depend on Tomago at the moment. So something needs to be done to save it, but we need to have an aluminium industry in this country. But the answer for every single one of these wobbling industries because of energy prices, and 40% of their costs are energy, it can't be the answer that the government has to step in every time. We just can't do it. Made in Australia is becoming a joke. 

KARVELAS: I want to go to child care - Four Corners last night was pretty chilling. You know, a really important story, but also really hard, I think, just to get your head around the level of abuse the paedophiles that are trying to infiltrate what should be a safe place for children. Do you think the government needs to be doing more, and do you support the Productivity Commission's idea of this sort of a commission?

MCKENZIE: I was just actually sitting in the chamber and had a long conversation with Jason Clare, and my compliments to him and to the government in relation to the bipartisan work we have done in relation to this. The revelations on Four Corners last night are absolutely harrowing and horrifying. The suggestion that there are up to 150 perpetrators, some of whom have been charged and some of whom have not. The fact that there are still a number of people who hold Working With Children checks who may have had allegations made against them. We are obviously, as a system -Commonwealth, state, police and the owners and operators of the system - not doing enough. 

Do I think something like a Royal Commission is the answer? No, but I don't rule it out. I think we need to have everything on the table, but just sitting down now talking to Jason, we underestimate just how organised these perpetrators are. They know where the loopholes are in the system. They know where there are weak links in terms of a provider's ability to make sure all the safety requirements are being met. We have a shortage of staff in some of these industries, and you can't always make sure there are two people in a room with a child, but we must. This must be a zero tolerance environment, because, frankly, the perpetrators are doing a much better job of knowing where to go and how not to get caught. So it was an important reaffirmation of our duty and obligation to increase and be assiduous in our safety expectations last night on television. And as I've seen from today, sitting down with Jason myself, the government's up for it.

KARVELAS: Patrick Gorman, I would have thought the whole Parliament should have sort of stopped after this story today. A lot of other things have things have happened, I know, but it is pretty alarming. Doesn't it show that you need to put your foot on the accelerator when it comes to something like that national commission idea, like actually doing - I know you've, you know, I don't want a list of everything. I know there's a lot being done, and Zoe acknowledged that too, but you need to do more. This is, this is just beyond a crisis.

GORMAN: For hundreds of thousands of parents taking their kids to child care today, I think that would have been a very difficult drop off. We have had too many of those difficult drop offs in recent months. And what we have seen on Four Corners -and it's the power of investigative journalism to unfortunately tell us things that we don't want to hear but we need to hear here in the parliament. I thank the ABC for giving us that information. I am not going to sit here and say that we are going to rule things out. We want to make sure that children are safe - some of the most vulnerable people in our society - are safe when they are in the care of others. That is what I want to see. And I want to make sure that we do all the things we have said we will already do - I won't list them, but it is extensive.

KARVELAS: I appreciate that.

GORMAN: And we are working with the states and territories and again, in a non-partisan way, but we will keep doing that, and we will keep listening to families, providers, survivors of abuse as well, to make sure that we get this right. Because I do not want to see those reports. It is disgusting. I could not actually be able to bring myself to watch the reports, but it's awful.

KARVELAS: Well, it is hard. Yeah, it is. and I'm glad to see - we will continue to pursue it, right?

GORMAN: Please, you should. 

KARVELAS: Because, with respect, everyone needs to be pushed on this. Finally, Joy Division and a T-shirt that the Prime Minister wore. Sussan Ley says that the T-shirt by the band Joy Division, which is a kind of - Gen X. If you're a Gen Xer - talking to a friend about a friend. Okay, it takes its name from sexual slavery wing of a Nazi concentration camp. Very offensive, I get that, but it's like a band, and it's a pretty kind of well-known band, is it really - ? 

MCKENZIE: Well, I am a Gen Xer and I am more of a NENA '99 Luftballons' girl myself, which doesn't offend anyone -

KARVELAS: Look, all about George Michael, who should offend no one. But the point -

MCKENZIE: Yeah. Look, the point is - he's a man of a certain age. Get out of the T-shirts, trying to look cool, I say. And particularly the really ill chosen ones, right? Most people know that that is a reference to what happened in Nazi concentration camps. You just don't wear it.

KARVELAS: I don't think most people do.

MCKENZIE: Really? Well the Prime Minister clearly did, because he discussed it in a podcast in 2022 so maybe just leave that one at home and get a different one. He was in America, I'm sure I could pick up different ones, or better yet, wear an Australian band.

KARVELAS: An Australian band. It's a good point, but, but is it really worth Sussan Ley standing up in the parliament before Question Time to raise it?

MCKENZIE: I suspect she's had a lot of correspondence today, whether it's emails or text messages about people telling them how offended, how offended they were by him wearing it. It's not it's not hard to pick a different T-shirt.

KARVELAS: Cancel culture, you're not into that? 

MCKENZIE: But he's the Prime Minister. No, I'm not into that, but he's the Prime Minister. And again, I'd say the crime is actually wearing band T-shirts when you're a man of a certain age. But nevertheless, he could have picked a better one. 

KARVELAS: Okay, you think the crime is wearing band T-shirts -

MCKENZIE: - Trying to be cool when you're not.

KARVELAS: Well, yeah. I mean, look 'cool' according to who, right? Like, so, you know, every Gen Z - you've got kids my kids' age, they think we're losers and they're right.

MCKENZIE: And wear it with pride. 

KARVELAS: But really, he did know, you're right. He's discussed it. Was it a bad choice?

GORMAN: I try and not comment on my colleagues' clothing at the best of times. I think it's a band T-shirt of a band that he has been very open he is a fan of. I think that is okay for the Prime Minister to like a band, a well-loved band - their music has been around for a few decades now -

KARVELAS: But even as he has discussed that it was raised with him. I mean, you know, I don't know if there should be a Royal Commission into this, but is it bad judgement?

GORMAN: I thought it was an odd speech from Sussan Ley to give just before Question Time. She could have given a speech where she finally showed some appreciation for the important work we have done for Australian jobs on the world stage. She chose not to do that. I think the fact that we're sitting here debating a T-shirt for a band that millions of Australians love. 'Love will Tear us Apart,' that is a well-liked song. I think the fact we're debating this is - there are big issues in the world, I don't think band T-shirts of mainstream bands is one of them.

KARVELAS: Okay, well, you know, we talked about the other big issues in the majority of the show, because, yeah, I take your point, but thank you for coming on the programme. It's been a good conversation.

GORMAN: Thank you.