Press conference - Sydney
E&OE Transcript
MICHAEL KAINE, NATIONAL SECRETARY OF TRANSPORT WORKERS’ UNION: What a fantastic day we have today. I've got in my hand the first four applications to be made in a world-first system. A world-first system that says it doesn't matter whether you're a transport worker that's an employee, whether you're a transport worker that's an owner/driver truckie that owns your own small business, whether you're a transport worker that works in the gig economy as a food delivery worker, as a rideshare worker, you are covered in the Australian Workplace Relations system. This is a huge moment, it's a world first. And because it's a world first, we've got unions and workers from around the world that are joining us here as we make these world-first applications.
It shouldn't matter as a worker in Australia whether the legal label applied to you is one of an employee or one of an independent contractor or one of a gig worker. You deserve rights, and until literally Monday, and until today when these applications were made, we've had workers in this country who have been deprived rights. Gig workers have literally been dying from exploitation. Nineteen food delivery workers, rideshare workers have died in recent years just performing their work, and that's because they're under incredible pressure: incredible pressure to make a living for themselves and their families. Why? Because they don't have a minimum wage. Why? Because they have to make the delivery in a certain window or the algorithm will kick them off, will sack them, and they won't have any recourse to challenge that. That all changes today. The gig economy changes today. The pressures on transport operators, transport companies in the middle of transport supply chains who are being asked to operate as banks, forced by clients in the industry to be unpaid for up to six months after they have performed the work, that changes today.
Today is a day where every worker in road transport, regardless of their legal label, is going to apply for rights. And the Fair Work Commission today will receive applications in relation to the food delivery industry for gig workers, in relation to parcel delivery for gig workers. And what will these applications do? Well, it'll ask the Fair Work Commission to establish a minimum wage. It's hard to believe we're even saying that. These workers have no minimum wage. Today these workers are exercising their new power to apply for a minimum wage. And in the gig economy what will that mean? Well, it will mean that they'll have at least the wage that an employee receives doing this work, but it means more than that. It means that built into the wage that they receive will be something for the uncertain and intermittent nature of gig work, will be something to ensure that their costs are recovered. Many food delivery workers perform their work on motorbikes. Fuel spikes week in week out, they have no way to recover that cost. They'll have the capacity to receive workers compensation like payments, insurance payments from companies when they're injured, something for their families if the worst happens and these workers are lost on our roads. And they'll have, of course, the right to join their union, to have representation structures in place, to have delegate structures in place so that they can continue over the course of time to support their workers, their colleagues and to build standards.
This is a watershed moment. This is a moment where the lives of transport workers in the gig economy and in the broader transport economy start to change for the better. But this isn't just about workers. It's also about the companies that engage workers in transport. Whether you're a gig company, or you're a road transport company, we must ensure road transport is sustainable. At the moment, road transport is a dead, dead, deathly spiral, downward spiral of standards. Companies are going out at the rate of 300-400 a year out of this industry because they simply can't survive because of the cut-throat nature of the industry. These new laws, starting with these applications, will help make transport more sustainable. It will support good businesses, it will support sustainable competition, and when you have those things in play, you're able to better support workers.
The Transport Workers’ Union is so proud to be here with an international delegation. To be here with workers from right across road transport, including the gig economy. To be here with the head of the union movement in transport across the world, Steve Cotton, the head of the union movement in Australia, Sally McManus, and the Minister for Workplace Relations, Murray Watt. This is a watershed moment. This is the moment that the gig economy changes. This is the moment that we make transport more sustainable, that we start saving lives, that we provide gig workers with a living for themselves and their families, and the first thing we should do in these circumstances is hear from these gig workers themselves. I'm going to introduce Helen, who's a food delivery rider from Melbourne.
HELEN WONG, FOOD DELIVERY RIDER: Our job is so tough, we hope this new law gets things easier. Safety [indistinct] is so important, better pays means we don't have to rush ourselves to stay on road to make payment, to make and take breaks. We barely make enough for our lives, there is no chance for us to save our superannuation and personal injury insurance. Personal injury insurance and safety training is so important. We have 18 delivery drivers died on our road. This number has increased day‑by‑day. We want this stopped.
MICHAEL KAINE: Thanks, Helen. Utsav is a food delivery rider from the ACT.
UTSAV BHATTARAI, FOOD DELIVERY DRIVER: Hi everyone, this is Utsav. I'm a food delivery driver from Canberra. I'm here today because I have been in all the major apps that we have in Australia. I have been deactivated, I have been harassed, I have been in every situation that a normal worker shouldn't be in. I want to tell the general population of Australia what it's like to be a food delivery driver. We don't have any personal leave, we don't have any sick leave, we don't get any loadings, we don't have any entitlements, we don't get any breaks, there's no safety net at all. But today, for the first time in the world, the drivers from Australia will have a chance, will have an open pathway to apply for these standards that will help us to get this minimum standards. I was reading something, and I found out in the 19th century, minimum wage was set to allow a man to support a family of five, and we're in the 21st century, and we're asking for a minimum wage. And it was too much to ask for, and we had to fight with the Government. It was, you know, just insanity, and we're here now to celebrate this victorious moment. I want to thank every single one who is here today, every one of you, you are courageous, you are brave to be here, to be supporting this. Thank you so very much, and I can't wait the future where all the drivers in the road will be safe, and who can return to their family safely. Thank you all.
MICHAEL KAINE: Hear hear.
MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Well, thanks very much to Michael and all of your members. It's inspiring for me joining you here today on what Michael correctly describes as a world-leading day for Australia and our workplace relations laws. Thank you, Sally McManus, as the leader of Australia's Trade Union Movement, for leading the charge to ensure that workers do get the rights that we expect in a developed country like Australia, and thank you to my good mate Senator Tony Sheldon, who I know has been advocating for workers like these for so many years, both in the Parliament and before in his union career.
The Albanese Government was elected on a platform of delivering better wages, more secure work and safer workplaces, and today's application from the TWU is another step forward to delivering that better pay, more secure work and safe workplaces that all Australian workers deserve. One of the ways that we've done that is by closing loopholes that existed in the workplace relations scheme, which allowed new types of employers, new technology companies to come up with creative ways to avoid paying the kind of entitlements and pay that Australian workers have always been entitled to. So I congratulate the TWU and its members for taking up these laws that Labor has delivered to ensure that workers like these get better pay, more secure work and safer workplaces, which is what they deserve. We are very, very supportive of this application, and we're very supportive of Australian workers getting the rights that they deserve, whether they're classified as an employee or whether their workplace has got around that scheme by finding different creative ways to avoid their obligations.
Now we've seen this week that there is a real contrast between the two major political parties on these issues. This week Labor's laws have introduced new rights for workers; the right to disconnect, these rights for employee-like workers, and new rights for casual workers. And we've seen Peter Dutton in the Coalition say that if they're elected to office, they will scrap a whole range of these rights and more. So Australia's workers will have a very clear choice at the next election about whether they want a government that's standing with them and is on their side to help them get through the cost‑of‑living pressures that they're facing at the moment, or face a Peter Dutton‑led Liberal National Party Government that wants to take those rights away.
But congratulations again to the TWU and the Australian union movement in general, including, of course, the members for the terrific work that they're doing. Well done.
MICHAEL KAINE: Thanks very much.
SALLY McMANUS, SECRETARY OF AUSTRALIAN COUNCIL OF TRADE UNIONS: G'day, I'm Sally McManus, I'm the Secretary of the ACTU. First of all, I'd like to pay tribute to all of the brave members of the TWU that are here today. Their fight for basic rights, the rights that every other worker in Australia already has got, has been pretty epic. They've had to face off conservative governments, they've had to go and argue with the crossbench, they've had to go and argue with employers, and over that period of time they are now victorious. And this is a huge day for them to be able to go and make this application at the Fair Work Commission to get rights that every other Australian worker already has. And this would not have happened if they were not union members, if they were not members of the mighty TWU, who never gave up, never gave up through all the difficult times, through COVID when these workers were putting their lives on the line, never gave up for truckies every single day.
And this is about making sure that all workers are treated fairly in our country. It's not tolerable that any worker would be paid less than the minimum wage. And the fact that the Australian union movement is doing this as a world first is something that the whole union movement is incredibly proud of. We are the ones that were the first actually to win a living wage in the world, and we are the ones who are going to be the first to make sure that that's extended to everyone in the digital age. So a very big day for people today, both for truckies and both for food delivery riders, and we'll be with them every step of the way succeeding in this application so that they can put themselves, as they deserve, on the same footing as every other worker.
MICHAEL KAINE: Thanks Sally, and can I introduce the General Secretary of the International Transport Workers' Federation - the peak body for transport unions around the world - who's with us here today to make these historic applications, Stephen Cotton.
STEPHEN COTTON, GENERAL SECRETARY OF INTERNATIONAL TRANSPORT WORKERS’ FEDERATION: Good morning everyone. So I'm representing 16.5 million transport workers, from 740 transport unions in over 150 countries. Why are we here today? Because this is a momentous occasion.
We've seen a race to the bottom in the trucking business, the last mile delivery, and for us in the ITF, we commend Michael, the whole of the TWU, all of the amazing activists, Sally for your political support. Why? Because you're setting a standard, a standard that won't just be for Australia, it will be a global standard. So I have a long history with the labour movement here, and we know it's challenging times in the world, but it's critical - the leadership shown here.
We have delegates from Europe, Africa, Asia, who all wanted to be part of this occasion, and we will say thank you to the Government and the people of Australia for delivering a vision that will make working men and women's lives so much better. In the end, what do working men and women want? They want good, secure union jobs. So I'm immensely proud on behalf of our 16.5 million members to be here when you deliver the demand for real living conditions. So thank you on behalf of the world, and we can't wait to take what you've delivered here to the rest of the world and tackle unfair competition and those employers who are not responsible for the men and women of the world that deliver in transportation. Thank you.
MICHAEL KAINE: Thanks very much. Are there any questions before I'm going to invite, Choi Ng, who is a Hungry Panda rider. Hungry Panda has been one of the most spiteful companies in the gig economy. A food delivery company who targets workers when they raise their voices, who sacks them, who makes their work dry up, like they did with Choi Ng. She's going to join me as we walk upstairs to make these historic applications.
We want to send a very clear message. There are companies that are working constructively to figure out how we can use this system to make a difference. We really welcome that, because it's going to make a difference for your company, for the stability of transport markets. But there are those companies, like Hungry Panda, who've decided that they don't want to cooperate. For those companies, we will see you in the Fair Work Commission, and we will hold you to account.
Are there any questions?
JOURNALIST: Michael, you've done a lot of applications that cover most of the road transport industry except rideshare. Why's that?
MICHAEL KAINE: We're going to engage in a rideshare process. We will ask the Fair Work Commission before too long to set up a road transport advisory group sub-committee to start tackling the rideshare issues straight away. There are some additional considerations in rideshare that need to be worked through with the industry. We want to do that in an efficient way, yes, as quickly as we can, but we want to do it properly with the industry.
JOURNALIST: Should consumers expect to pay more now for Uber Eats if this goes through?
MICHAEL KAINE: I don't know whether consumers will pay more, or whether these companies will absorb any additional costs. Let's just remember what's happening here; we have tens of thousands of workers who are being paid less than the minimum wage. We have 19 workers in the last few years who have lost their lives in the pursuit of that work. Something has to change. That change is coming now. Sustainable markets are important. Consumers have become so accustomed to this new convenience, in food delivery for example, hitting the button on their app, and then as if by magic a knock on their door and their food has arrived. They want that convenience, but I think if you ask consumers would they be willing to pay a little bit more if they knew that the knock on that door is from a person who's rested, who's well‑paid, who's in an industry that's sustainable, I think you'd get an absolute emphatic yes as well.
JOURNALIST: I have some questions about the CFMEU, if that's okay?
MICHAEL KAINE: Well we're going to head up with Choi Ng to ‑ is there any other questions about these applications?
JOURNALIST: So one more question - New South Wales and Queensland Governments are introducing their own laws for pay and conditions for gig workers. They're going to basically duplicate what we have in the Federal regime, it seems. Isn't that just going to be incredibly complex and going to create all sorts of problems down the road?
MICHAEL KAINE: No, not necessarily. The Federal scheme is very clear, that's been set up, and that is that where standards are put in place at a national level, those standards will apply to the exclusion of any other standards that exist in the country. There are good reasons for State systems to be delving into this. Workers in states don't have worker's compensation rights, for example. It is critical that that loophole is plugged, and states have a role to play there. There are state peculiarities in specific sub-sectors like passenger transport where taxi systems are different from state to state, sometimes from city to city. So there are good reasons, but we're confident that the new system, which establishes national standards, and which excludes any other standards when they are established, will ensure there won't be any duplication.
MURRAY WATT: If there's other questions on other issues?
JOURNALIST: Yes, please.
MURRAY WATT: Sure.
JOURNALIST: Are you concerned the CFMEU is going to turn away votes from Labor at the ballot box?
MURRAY WATT: Oh no, it's a matter for the CFMEU how they approach these issues. You know, obviously there were protests in a number of different cities yesterday, but it doesn't alter the fact that the CFMEU is now in administration, the Construction and General Division of that union is now in administration. The administrator is in place, is running the union now for the benefit of its members, and that's really the main game.
JOURNALIST: The CFMEU is threatening an imminent High Court challenge. Are the new laws vulnerable to a legal challenge?
MURRAY WATT: We always expected that the CFMEU would take legal action over these laws. We have designed them in a way that as best as possible withstands legal challenge. Obviously, it will be a matter for courts to decide on the fate of those laws, but we're confident they're legally sound.
JOURNALIST: Should workers have their pay docked four hours for walking out yesterday?
MURRAY WATT: That's a matter for the employers of those workers.
JOURNALIST: The Financial Review reported that the CFMEU ‑ sacked CFMEU New South Wales leaders - held a secret meeting on Monday where they organised delegates to vote for people to stop work for these rallies, and they've also engaged in other industrial matters. Aren't they making a mockery of the administration, and shouldn't the administrator use the anti-avoidance laws to target them?
MURRAY WATT: Look, I think everyone expected that the early days of this administration would be a little bit bumpy. We expected that there'd be protests of the kind that we saw yesterday, but as I say, it doesn't change the fact that there is now an administrator in place, and for very good reason. You can see here today the importance of unionism in Australia, the importance of strong and effective unions that are delivering better rights, better pay and more safe workplaces for their members. That's what unionism is about, and so many unions and union officials do that each and every day, and for the members of the CFMEU, what we're seeking to do through this process is ensure that their union remains strong and effective, can campaign for their rights, but that they have a clean union that hasn't been infiltrated by organised crime and bikies, which unfortunately has occurred in too many instances.
JOURNALIST: What about other unions that were at the rallies yesterday, do you think that their support was misguided?
MURRAY WATT: Oh no, I'm not going to accuse anyone who attended a protest of anything, it's everyone's right to make a decision about that kind of thing. I would point out that the other unions that participated in yesterday's protests were either other branches of the CFMEU, like the Maritime Union, or other construction-related unions, so I don't think it's a surprise that we saw them. I'd also make the point that the overwhelming majority of unions in Australia and their members were not at yesterday's rally. So, you know, I'll leave it for the union movement to express its position, but I think that's worth noting as well. Last one, hey, last one?
JOURNALIST: Just the Brisbane rally yesterday featured a placard depicting the PM as Hitler and a coffin with his face on it, Greens MP Max Chandler‑Mather, he was there. Do you think that that was appropriate?
MURRAY WATT: I was really disturbed to see some of the placards, particular at the Brisbane rally, invoking Nazi references, a coffin with the Prime Minister's face on it, and I don't think that reflects well on the leadership of the CFMEU. It's not about their members, it's about their leadership. That's what we're trying to tackle here. And for Max Chandler‑Mather, the Greens MP from Brisbane, to share a stage with people with that kind of Nazi references, coffins, let alone the behaviour that we've seen from some CFMEU leaders around organised crime, bikies and violence, I think that says a lot about the Greens Party, that they're prepared to grandstand and turn a blind eye to the repeated behaviour of certain union officials in that union who clearly have been in league with organised crime, bikies and condoning violence. I really think it's a question for the Greens for them to explain to their voters why they condone the kind of behaviour we've seen from some CFMEU officials and aren't standing up to it. They say that they're a party of peace. Yesterday they showed that they're behind some people who are doing, in some cases, criminal activities. I'll leave it at that.
JOURNALIST: Sally, a number of union leaders at the rallies yesterday personally targeted you, accusing you of being a sell-out to working people, and calling out you and the ACTU for not backing the CFMEU. What's your response to that? And secondly, are you out of touch with grassroots membership?
SALLY McMANUS: I think there was a whole lot of deflection happening yesterday. I did hear some of those comments, and really, there's a point where people have got to reflect on their own decisions and their own behaviour and why has it led to where we are now. I just want to make it really clear, there's no place for criminals or violence and intimidation in our movement. It's not an easy thing that is happening. We will be part of making sure that that union comes through stronger than ever. This is also not just an issue of workers and of members of that union. This is a big issue in the construction industry, and actually it’s employers that are hiring and engaging a whole lot of those criminal elements and action needs to be taken on them.
JOURNALIST: Unions at the rallies said the administration laws were akin to sort of dictatorship actions and could be applied to any other unions in the future whether by Liberal Governments or others. Do you share that concern; does the ACTU share that concern?
SALLY McMANUS: Yes, and I think that in this situation it's pretty clear that, you know, the fact that there are ‑ and it's not something that's in contest ‑ infiltration of organised crime, is a very serious matter and is not something that is highly unique as well. In terms of people being on charges, even though we've all said they've got the right to innocence, they're on charges of being on the take for the boss and continuing to remain in their positions is, in our view, a pretty serious conflict of interest and not sustainable, and not the standards that we hold ourselves up to as union leaders. These are pretty extraordinary.
Secondly, I'd say that the ACTU has always encouraged the CFMEU to take action to deal with this themselves. We've been encouraging that for many years, and in the last two months we've been doing exactly the same. What we wanted was very clear, for those accused of serious misconduct to stand aside. And then when it became clear that it was too difficult and how deep these issues were because of the reporting that came out, for them to consent to administration to avoid the need for legislation, that was all in their hands, that's their decisions. Unfortunately, key individuals chose to not act, and that's what we find ourselves in. So I can't imagine that any of those circumstances would ever be replicated.
JOURNALIST: CFMEU leaders were citing your quote, "Bad laws deserve to be broken", to justify their actions. What's the difference now?
SALLY McMANUS: That actually wasn't my quote, so maybe they should just Google it.
MICHAEL KAINE: So Choi Ng, the Hungry Panda driver. Thank you for your bravery, Choi Ng. She's been fighting for some time now. I want to thank everyone here today, the people that have come in from right around the world to join us for this moment.
We are ecstatic about this moment, we are ecstatic. This is 25 years that workers have been fighting for a system that will ensure that they're safe on our roads, which helps all road users. Twenty-five years, transport companies that are good companies have been fighting for a stable industry.
The last 10 years, gig workers have been literally exploited to death, and today they have the power, and Choi Ng's going to take these applications up to Level 11 and file them with the Fair Work Commission, the first applications in the new Road Transport stream of the Fair Work Commission. Fantastic.