Interview with Sarah Ferguson - ABC 7.30

E&OE Transcript 

SARAH FERGUSON, HOST: Murray Watt is the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations. He took over the role recently and immediately had to plunge his hands into the gritty combat with the CFMEU.
As we just heard, he introduced a bill today to appoint an administrator to the union via legislation, taking it away from the courts where it looked likely to stall. The Minister joins me now. Murray Watt, welcome to 7:30.
 
MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Hi Sarah, good to be with you.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Now, as you warned you might, you've introduced this legislation to bring on the appointment of the administrator. Did the resistance of union leadership force your hand?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yes it did, Sarah. You might recall that I've made very clear now - really since the time I was sworn into this role a couple of weeks ago, that if these matters weren't resolved by the time we returned to Parliament, we would be introducing legislation. And that's exactly what we've done today.
I publicly called on the CFMEU leadership to consent to the application made to the court to put them into administration. They still haven't consented. It's clear that they're not going to. And we're not prepared to wait any longer to clean up this union and return it to focusing on the best interests of its members.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Now the Assistant Secretary of the CFMEU in NSW resigned today. Do you want a complete turnover in the leadership?
 
MURRAY WATT: Look, I think that is a welcome and very overdue move to see the Assistant Secretary depart. But I note that his father, who is the secretary of the CFMEU in NSW, remains in that position despite being charged with corruption offences as well. He hasn't stood aside from that role. And in fact, either today or very recently he addressed members of the union in NSW and assured them that it was business as usual. And this just goes to show why we need to take this urgent action and frankly, why we need both the Coalition and the Greens to get on board and stop the delay tactics as they seem to be engaging in.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Worth pointing out that Mr Greenfield Snr in NSW denies the allegations against him. But to go to the Coalition, they want a Senate inquiry - a quick Senate inquiry - into your bill. Will you agree to that?
 
MURRAY WATT: We don't believe that a Senate inquiry is needed. And I note that the Master Builders Association, one of the peak employer groups in the building industry, also opposes a Senate inquiry. The Opposition have lodged a motion for debate in the Senate tomorrow to set up an open-ended inquiry into the CFMEU. I mean, does anyone seriously-
 
SARAH FERGUSON: You say open-ended, but I think they've already committed to it being quick.
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, the motion that I've seen is much longer than that. And does anyone seriously think that people are going to want to come to an open Parliamentary hearing and give evidence, at the same time that we're being told that people are fearful - and rightfully so - of reprisals?
This is just a delaying tactic by the Opposition. I mean, these are the people who for years have been calling out behaviour of the CFMEU. They did nothing about it while they were in Government. They never took the steps that we're taking right now, and now they're wanting to delay it day after day after day.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Now, one of the questions they've raised over the fixing of a three year time limit on the job of cleaning out the union, is that enough time? And why do you need that time limit?
 
​MURRAY WATT: We thought very carefully about the time limit, because clearly it's not going to be an overnight management issue to clean the union up. We think that three years is the right time frame to enable the administrator to really overhaul the union and, as I say, to return the union to focusing on the best interests of its members. We want to have a strong and effective union in the construction industry. It is dangerous, hard work and the workers in that industry deserve a strong, effective, but also clean union. And that's what our process would enable.
 
​SARAH FERGUSON: If it's going to take three years to clean out the Augean Stables that is the current CFMEU according to the descriptions of it that we've seen recently, then doesn't that also suggest that a Royal Commission is needed?
 
MURRAY WATT: No, we don't believe that it is. And again, the Master Builders Association has also agreed that we don't need yet another the Royal Commission or yet another inquiry into the CFMEU or the construction industry. What we need is action, and that is exactly what we have provided by introducing that legislation today. We will be ready to debate and pass this legislation through the Senate tomorrow. And it's a matter for the Coalition and the Greens if they're going to decide to slow this down and enable the John Setka’s of this world to continue their reign of power in a way that is very damaging to the union's members, let alone the broader community.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: You just raised the issue of whistleblowers and why that would not be suitable for an open Parliamentary inquiry. Will the administrator have the power to protect whistleblowers?
 
MURRAY WATT: We are giving consideration to that right now, Sarah. It's not in the current bill. It's just taken a little bit of drafting to get this together. But I'm very sympathetic to the idea that the administrator does need those powers, and whistleblowers who want to come forward to the administrator need those powers as well. So we're working on that at the moment and I expect to be able to have a bit more to say about that soon.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Now, if you get the legislation through, what do you expect the administrators first acts would be?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, the way the legislation is structured and it is important that we do this properly and in a way that withstands the almost inevitable legal challenges we will see from the CFMEU. But basically, the way the legislation is structured is that it gives me, as the Minister, the power to determine whether it's in the public interest to put the construction division of the union into administration. So there's a couple of steps that need to be taken there. And importantly, this is a legislation that is targeted at one division of one union, not all unions, not other parts of the CFMEU.
But we would obviously then need to prepare what's called a scheme of administration, which would set out the powers of the administrator. I would expect it to be pretty closely modelled on the scheme that was put forward in the Fair Work Commission before the courts, and that includes things like vacating office holders, potentially terminating the employment of officials who are under a massive cloud, the power to seize assets. So it would have wide-ranging powers I would expect. But we haven't obviously drafted that scheme because we've yet to get the legislation passed.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Now, as of today, are there still individuals with connections to organised crime and bikie gangs working as delegates or intermediaries for the CFMEU?
 
MURRAY WATT: Look, I think it's very difficult to know, frankly, because we haven't had the ability to really dig into the union in the way that we would have if I did decide to appoint an administrator. I think it's reasonable to expect, with the widespread infiltration of the union and the industry by organised crime and bikie figures, I think it's reasonable to assume that there may well be more. But this is exactly one of the things that we need to be looked at. The police, both Federal and State, are currently investigating a range of allegations. My predecessor, Tony Burke, referred a number of those allegations to police. And I expect that that will yield more results as well.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: You just said widespread. What are you basing that on? Widespread infiltration of criminals. What's that based on?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I think even the media reporting that we've seen to date has demonstrated that in some branches of the CFMEU construction division there is active involvement of bikies and organised crime figures in the activities of the union and in the construction industry more broadly. There have been stories going around for a long time that it's wider than what has been reported on to date. Obviously, these are matters that need to be investigated. I noticed, for instance, today that Michaelia Cash in some media that she did as the Coalition spokesperson, said that these were things that had been going on for years, that we've known about these allegations. I guess the question for them is why didn't they do something about it and why aren't they prepared to agree to our legislation right away?
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Well, if you say that there have been stories going around for a long time, why didn't your government do something about it and why did you abolish the existing organisation that was in place and replace it with nothing?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I would argue that we are doing something about it with the very legislation that we're putting before the parliament-
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Yes, but that was - that was, in a sense, forced upon you by media reporting.
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, we did certainly respond to the very serious allegations that have been in the media of late. And I think, as I've said to you before, Sarah, I don't think that people really knew the gravity of the involvement of organised crime and bikie gangs in these areas until that media reporting occurred. But we are taking action - the strongest action that any government has ever taken against any union or employer group.
 And in terms of the ABCC, that was a dismal failure in bringing these issues under control. I mean, in the entire time the ABCC was in existence, these allegations surfaced, no action was taken. And we also know that productivity in the construction industry fell and industrial disputes went up during the ABCC's tenure. So it failed when it came to prosecuting these individuals for this activity and in actually getting the construction industry working better.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: And just briefly, on the subject of the bosses, that is, the construction companies in this sector, will those people also be investigated for using organised crime to wield power?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, I've made the point elsewhere, Sarah, that I think it's really important to recognise that if there are union officials taking bribes, there is an employer paying those bribes. And we do need to make sure that employers who are doing the wrong thing also are accountable for their actions. Now, as I mentioned, the AFP and state police have a number of matters under investigation. I, of course, don't know the full details of those, but I would certainly expect that police are paying very close attention to breaches of the criminal law by employers as well.
 
SARAH FERGUSON: Murray Watt, thank you very much indeed for joining us this evening.
 
MURRAY WATT: Thanks, Sarah.