Interview with Raf Epstein - ABC Melbourne Mornings

RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: It is making news around the world. Nobody else has managed to ban teenagers from social media. It has been a successful week for the Government as well, they have passed 45 separate laws. Murray Watt joins us, he is the Employment Minister in Anthony Albanese's Government and he's a key part of Labor's team in the Senate that has already passed much of this legislation. Good morning.
 
MURRAY WATT: G'day, Raf, good to be with you.
 
RAF EPSTEIN: I'll get to the substantial batch of laws in a moment. Just a simple question. How are the social media companies going to know my age?
 
MURRAY WATT: So, what we've done through these laws, and as you say, they are world first laws, which is pretty exciting for Australia to be leading the pack. What we're doing is requiring the social media platforms to take reasonable steps to prevent users from establishing or holding an account if they're underage. Now, what we know is that this technology is evolving really quickly, and for example, TikTok quite recently have taken action to remove a very large number of users based on information they had just gleaned as part of their ordinary operations.

So, it is possible for the technology companies to be able to take these steps to limit who accesses their products. What we did do yesterday was say that there can't be a requirement for government documents, whether it be, you know, licences, passports, things like that, to be uploaded as part of this test. This is going to be a requirement for the technology companies to work through. What we are also -
 
RAF EPSTEIN: Can I get to the government document, Murray Watt? I had a look at the legislation and the explanatory memorandum that helps to explain the legislation. It says government documents can't be the only method. But it's an available option. It's an available option. They can use it if they want to, can't they?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, what we've said is that no one will be forced to upload government documents to demonstrate their age and all of the platforms will be required -
 
RAF EPSTEIN: But not forced doesn't mean they can't.
 
MURRAY WATT: No, no, but what we have also said is that platforms will be required to offer people at least one other method to meet the verification requirements -
 
RAF EPSTEIN: So, what are those options?
 
MURRAY WATT: Look, that'll be up for the technology companies to work through. And we are also right now undertaking a trial of age assurance technologies to develop some of these methods to do it. I guess the point of the legislation passed yesterday was to put in place the framework and the requirement on tech companies, of course, in response -
 
RAF EPSTEIN: But I still haven't heard from you precisely how it will work if you don't know precisely how they're going to check my age when I open up my phone in the morning and look at an app. If you don't know precisely how it's going to work, how do you know it will work?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, what I've said is that we have put in place a range of protections around data that will be provided from people. People can't be forced, as I say, to provide government documents. There's got to be other options provided.
 
RAF EPSTEIN: How else are they going to know how old I am?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, again, that will be up to the technology companies to work these things out. They've been able to work out who they want to limit access to in other situations, whether it be TikTok doing that already, or other platforms doing certain things. We have said that this legislation won't start for 12 months, so there is time to work through implementation details. And we've also imposed much stronger privacy requirements on the platforms and what that will do is require them to destroy material that's been collected to demonstrate someone's age.
 
RAF EPSTEIN: So, you're going to trust them with my information, even though they're the source of the problem?
 
MURRAY WATT: We're going to go further than trusting them with that. For starters, as I say, there will be privacy protections which force them to destroy material that they collect, or otherwise if they're going to use it for any secondary purpose, they have to explicitly obtain consent from people for that purpose. So, they're much stronger privacy protections than we have through our general privacy legislation. I mean, as I say, this is world first. No one has done this before. It will take a little bit of time to work through the kind of implementation details, which is why we've given it 12 months and it's also why we're currently running a trial to work out what are the best ways of enforcing these kind of things.
 
RAF EPSTEIN: At the top of the show, I asked if the social media ban, or when the social media ban comes in, that's the end of next year. What is going to change for you? Give me a call, let me know what you think of what Murray Watt's had to say. Senator - Minister, I should say, shouldn't I?

MURRAY WATT: Murray's fine, too.

RAF EPSTEIN: Future Made in Australia, so, that's tax discounts for companies that invest in green industries. Changes at the Reserve Bank, so, we're getting a different group of people determining interest rates. Help to Buy scheme, helping people to buy a home with the government. Supermarket Code of Conduct. Buy now, pay later has got extra credit conditions. Did you pass too many laws too quickly?
 
MURRAY WATT: I don't think so, Raf. I mean, I think that Australians do expect their parliaments to get things done. And it has been frustrating, not just to the government, but I think to Australians, that for months now the Senate has been holding up a whole bunch of different legislation, whether it be the things that you've just mentioned or also some really important cost a living relief that we've been trying to deliver to people. Things like removing the surcharges on debit cards when people use those to pay for things at the shops. The Build to Rent legislation which you were mentioning, and the Help to Buy earlier this week, things that we've seen, in some cases, this is legislation that was introduced last year and has been scrutinised by Senate Committees, plenty of time for people to have their say. But of course, because we don't have the numbers in the Senate, we do need some cooperation from other sides. And it was only this week that I think both the Opposition and the Greens realised that they couldn't spend summer defending blocking legislation to deal with cost of living, to provide more housing and all the other things we've achieved yesterday.

RAF EPSTEIN: You're in the Senate, so I hope I've got my numbers right. But 31 bills passed in a three hour period, that's less than six minutes per bill. Is that really - I appreciate some of this stuff's been around for a bit, but not all of it. Is that enough time for our elected representatives to really understand what they're voting for?
 
MURRAY WATT: I think it is, Raf, because as I say, much of this legislation was not only introduced last year in some cases, but has been really scrutinised intensely by Senate Committees. People have had opportunities to put in submissions, in some cases attend hearings. Amendments were made to much of the legislation that passed last night. It's one of the reasons it took so long. So, you know, we would always like to be able to pass legislation more quickly and, you know, be able to do more bills each week that we come to the sitting. But we do require cooperation from other parties and until this week we haven't seen much of that this year.

RAF EPSTEIN: We are all going to go and vote on your Government and Peter Dutton's offering and everyone else really soon. It's clear that you and the Prime Minister know how to get things done in the Parliament. I can see the PM and the Treasurer and the Finance Minister, you can tell from that press conference this morning how happy they are. But this Government's good at working the Parliament. You're bad at working the public, aren't you? Like, the Voice? Even when the Gillard Government passed lots of legislation, it didn't save that government. Aren't you sort of good in the Parliament and bad outside of it?
 
MURRAY WATT: I guess I'll leave that for others to sort of make that decision. But I think what we are increasingly seeing from the Government is a real focus on the core issue that people are facing, which is cost of living pressures, and not only trying to continue providing that kind of help for people now, but to do it into the future. You've seen already the Prime Minister has flagged that if we do win the next election, we'll reduce student debt, we'll lock in Free TAFE, and they're cost of living measures just as much as they are equity.
 
RAF EPSTEIN: Can I interrupt? And I'm going to be rude, two ways. Firstly, I'm going to interrupt. Secondly, you're just rubbish at selling this stuff, aren't you? Like, the polls are going the wrong way, right? If everything is as good as you say it is, your policies are as good as you say they are, why are the polls going down, not up?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, again, I'm not really a commentator on polls, but what I would say is that we absolutely understand that Australians are doing it tough at the moment. And if you look all around the world, incumbent governments are struggling with the fact that people are cranky and are struggling at the moment, and they're looking for their governments to do something about that. And it's why, you know, as I say, even this week, in the legislation that we've passed, cost of living relief was the number one focus that we had. And I recognise also that there's a real difference between what all of the data shows, which is that the economy is improving, that wages are growing, that inflation is falling, versus people's lived experience. People aren't feeling comfortable at the moment, and that is why we've got to continue doing more to provide that cost of living relief.

You know, as we enter the election campaign, we will be sharpening the contrast with the opposition, who have voted against every single cost of living measure that we've put forward. People wouldn't have had those tax cuts if Peter Dutton had his way. People wouldn't have had the energy bill relief, the cheaper medicines, the cheaper childcare, the Free TAFE. All of those things have been opposed by Peter Dutton and the Coalition. He opposed every wage rise, every change we've made to workplace laws which have lifted wages. So, I think there will be a real contrast and we'll be able to show that as difficult as things are for people at the moment, and they are, they would be a hell of a lot worse under Peter Dutton and the Coalition because they'd remove that cost of living relief and they would cut people's pay and conditions. They've already promised to do so if they're elected next year.
 
RAF EPSTEIN: Because it's Christmas, you read a poem, I think, to your fellow Senators. Can you give us an excerpt from your pre-Christmas poem?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, look, poem might be putting it a little bit high, Raf, I'm certainly no William Wordsworth or Shakespeare or anything like that, but here's a little excerpt.

All year Labor's worked hard to deliver a pay rise, for workers, the Libs have been noes, but Labor's been ayes.

Now an outraged Senator Cash and a Grinchy Mr Dutton have settled their IR plans, which would leave workers with nothing.

Cutting pay, cutting casuals, their cuts, many pages, but all with one aim: cutting Aussie workers' wages. 

So, as I say, if it's poetry or prose that's required, Raf, we're going to be showing that things will be worse under Peter Dutton and the Coalition, and that we as a Labor Government will continue doing everything we can to help people.
 
RAF EPSTEIN:  And I think that poem was to "Twas the Night Before Christmas." But I really appreciate that. Thanks for your time today.
 
MURRAY WATT: No worries. Raf.