Interview with Raf Epstein - ABC Melbourne Mornings

RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: Murray Watt is the Employment Minister and one of the ALP Senators from Queensland and a key part of Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's Government. Good morning. Thanks for joining us.

MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Good morning, Raf. Good to be with you.

RAF EPSTEIN: Economic growth is low. On average, people are getting less of the economic pie. Do you agree that on average people are worse off?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I guess these things depend on the calculations you make. What we did see yesterday encouragingly in the National Accounts is that while economic growth is still very weak, barely growing at the moment. We are seeing at last a bit of a turnaround in people's personal circumstances with wages beginning to grow above inflation. The tax cuts that we brought in earlier last year to relieve cost of living are making a difference, and of course, inflation is coming down and is less than half of what it was when we came to Office. So, there's no doubt whatsoever that Australians are still doing it tough right now, and that is why every step with the way we move with this, we are doing everything we can to help people. But you know, it is encouraging to see some turnaround beginning in those sort of living circumstances.

RAF EPSTEIN: You said whether or not people are worse off depends on the calculation. There is an ABS calculation of national income. That's where the $1,600 figure comes off. So, on average, Australians are $1,600 worse off. Do you accept that that's the case?

MURRAY WATT: I'm certainly not disputing what the ABS had to say. I guess what I'm saying is there are various different measures within those National Accounts. One of the other ones that stood out to me, and I guess this is a bit of economic jargon, is what's known as the real gross disposable income of Australians. So, the amount that people have as disposable income for them actually did increase in the last quarter, not by a lot, but by a little bit. So, I guess what I'm saying is that throughout the National Accounts there are various different measures. And I'm not trying to sugar coat this, things are really tough for people at the moment. It's why we need to keep delivering that cost of living support. It's why we still need to have wages policy in the country that sees wages growing. But it is encouraging to see some small turnaround beginning for the average workers pay.

RAF EPSTEIN: So, if I can try to get to the essence of what is going on and maybe also the essence of what your government says you can do. Wages are up, inflation is down, but people are not getting ahead. Why not? Like what do you see as the problem?

MURRAY WATT: I certainly accept that there's a big difference between what the data is telling us, which is that overall things are beginning to improve compared to what people are feeling in their daily lives. It doesn't necessarily feel that way for people. I think the fact that interest rates have stayed stable for a period of time has assisted with people’s confidence and people's feeling that they can start getting ahead again. As I say, the fact that wages for the first time in years in our country are actually growing above inflation is putting people just that little bit further ahead of where they were. But there is a difference, I recognise, between economic data and what people's lived experience. And we've got to keep working on that.

RAF EPSTEIN: That wasn't quite my question. Not that that's not important. What do you think is not working? You can point to lots of things in the data that you say are good and are good indicators. What's the block? What's the problem?

MURRAY WATT: Even the National Accounts figures that came through yesterday indicated that some of the real pressures on people remain interest rates being where they are. There's no doubt that that has affected people's disposable income. It's made a massive difference to anyone holding a mortgage throughout the country. There are still real cost of living pressures for people, despite the work that we've done to bring down inflation. And there's still a huge amount of global uncertainty out there that is driving that inflation surge, still interrupting supply chains. And even though we might be on the other side of the world to where some of this conflict is occurring, it's still having impact on us. So, I think it's a combination of those factors that despite, as I say, the really significant changes we made to workplace laws and imagine where we'd be if those changes hadn't happened. And as I've reminded you before, Peter Dutton and the Coalition voted against every single one of those changes we made to lift wages and to deliver cost of living support. Things would be so much worse if Peter Dutton and the Coalition had had their way. But that doesn't get away from the fact that things are still hard for people. And that's why we do need a Government right now and into the future that is going to deliver higher wages, that is going to deliver the cost of living support that people need and is not going to take a slash and burn approach to the Budget, which is what Peter Dutton is promising to do.

RAF EPSTEIN: As Employment Minister, Murray Watt, childcare wages are getting a big boost. How do we know that two, three years down the track that's not going to just lead to much higher childcare costs?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, that's certainly one of the things that we've taken into account, Raf, in designing this package. And it's great that you've recognised the very substantial pay rise that early childhood educators in our childcare centres are going to be receiving from this month. Again, as a result of the changes we made to workplace laws that has enabled dozens of different employers around the country in this sector to work cooperatively with unions and workers to come up with a deal that the government's supporting that will see a 10 per cent pay rise for your typical early childhood educator this month. And you know, we need to remember these are some of the lowest-paid workers in our community. From this month, they will receive a pay rise of about $103 per week and that will rise to $155 per week by the end of next year, making a huge difference for those people's cost of living. Just as the aged care pay rises have done the same thing, and the wage rises we're seeing across the country. But on the point about childcare fees, the deal that we insisted on with childcare centre operators was that we would only fund this pay rise if they committed to fee rises of no more than in around the 4 to 4.5 per cent per year range. So, roughly –

RAF EPSTEIN: That cap lasts only for one year?

MURRAY WATT: It's for two years, which is the length of the deal itself. So, we've agreed to fund this. It's a two year pay rise that we've agreed to fund for two years with that commitment in place for two years. But obviously, there will be need to be further work done between all of the parties about an extension of that beyond the two year mark. But the commitment at this stage is for two years. I think it would be pretty hard for a Government to walk away from that in future.

RAF EPSTEIN: Sorry, does that mean you think whenever you fund more wages for childcare workers, you'll also insist on a cap on the costs?

MURRAY WATT: I think that's very likely, Raf. You know, we have been very conscious to make sure that taxpayers funds doesn't end up just getting into the pockets of childcare centres who then pass on the extra wage costs to families. We want to make sure, I mean, our Government, again, cheaper childcare is something we've really focused on bringing down the cost of childcare. We're not about to put in place some sort of change that is actually going to lead to big childcare increases. I guess that's one of the incentives for childcare centres to come on board with this is that they can access that Government funding to pay the increased wages for their workers as long as they're prepared to make that commitment. If they're not going to make that commitment, they won't get the government funding, they won't be able to pay the same wages as their competitors. So, there is an inbuilt incentive there for centres to come aboard and help these workers get the pay rise they deserve.

RAF EPSTEIN: I think there's sort of a dual concern going on here. You might want your childcare, the person who looks after your kid to get more money, but you don't want your childcare costs to escalate. Might be the same with the Woolies dispute. You really don't want to have to pay more at Woolies. But there's a dispute right now between Woolies and some of its distribution workers. Does your Government need to intervene in that dispute?

MURRAY WATT: Well, both I, personally, my office and other people within the Government have been in discussions now with both Woolworths and the United Workers Union for several days. And every one of those conversations, we've encouraged each of the parties to try to bring this dispute to a resolution. Obviously, it's in the interests of the workers, Woolworths and the general public to get this resolved as quickly as possible.

RAF EPSTEIN: Do you need to pull a legal lever?

MURRAY WATT: Well, whether it was because of the discussions that we had with the parties or something else, they have both now sought the assistance of the Fair Work Commission to resolve the dispute. And I think that's a really good thing. In the discussions we were having with the parties, we made clear that the Fair Work Commission was available to help them resolve the dispute. It's now in the Fair Work Commission. So, I'd be certainly hopeful that we can see some progress before too long.

RAF EPSTEIN: But you don't think you need to do anything else as a Government right now?

MURRAY WATT: Now that it's before the Fair Work Commission, I think that is the best avenue to resolve it. So, as I say, whether it was because the discussions we had or something else, it's resulted in that. And that can only be a good thing.

RAF EPSTEIN: I wanted to ask about the vote in the United Nations. Australia voted in agreement to call for the end of Israel's unlawful presence in the occupied Palestinian territories as rapidly as possible. So, Australia's agreed with that? Australia hasn't voted in that way at the UN for something like two decades. Did 40,000 deaths change the Government's mind?

MURRAY WATT: Look, I think there's no ignoring the terrible loss of life that we've seen in Gaza since October 7 and since the awful incident involving Hamas and the death that it inflicted as well. But we can't ignore the fact that these casualties continue to rise and are causing immense pain, loss of life and distress right across the world.

RAF EPSTEIN: Is that the reason the Government changed its mind? The death toll amongst Palestinians?

MURRAY WATT: I think that's certainly a factor. But I guess what we've seen is an emerging international consensus that this conflict needs to come to an end, that we do need to see a two state solution as part of that resolution. I mean, you're right, Australia has taken a different position now than what we have for some period of time. But in voting for this resolution, we joined 156 other countries, including the UK, Canada, many other countries that Australia shares a lot of values with. So, I think that demonstrates that there is, as I say, a growing international consensus that things can't go on as they are. We've seen other resolutions that Australia has supported on this conflict in recent times as well. Again, in conjunction with over 150 other countries every single time. I think the whole world wants to see this conflict end. The United Nations, hopefully, by applying that kind of moral pressure, can bring that resolution more quickly.

RAF EPSTEIN: Murray Watt, thank you very much for your time.

MURRAY WATT: No worries, Raf.