Interview with Patricia Karvelas - ABC RN Breakfast

E&OE TRANSCRIPT

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The CFMEU is facing fresh allegations of misconduct with the Fair Work Commission investigating whether the union misappropriated funds. It's been alleged the construction union funnelled $180,000 in members fees to support the head of the Health Workers Union, Diana Asmar, in an unopposed union election campaign in 2022. Fair Work says an investigation into the Health Workers Union is expected to be finalised in the coming weeks, while a separate investigation into the CFMEU is in its early stages. Now, it's pretty much a massive headache for Labor, who say they are taking steps to clean up the union once and for all. The Workplace Relations Minister, newly minted, is Murray Watt and he's our guest. Hi, Murray Watt.
 
MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Good morning, Patricia. Good to be with you.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, you are preparing to introduce legislation to force the administration process should the CFMEU formally object. Do you know whether you need to pull that lever yet?
 
MURRAY WATT: Really, that is now in the hands of the CFMEU, Patricia. I've made very clear, both in correspondence to the union and publicly, that unless if the union consents to the application that's been made to the court to put them into administration, then we will act next week and we will introduce legislation that would enable the administration to go ahead. These issues need to be dealt with. They need to be dealt with now and we're prepared to legislate if that's what it takes to have action.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, is the legislation ready to roll?
 
MURRAY WATT: It's very close to being ready. I've met with our department pretty much every day since I started in the role to provide further instructions and we're getting very close now to finalising that legislation. And I should say, if we do have to introduce legislation next week, I would obviously be expecting the support of the Coalition, the Greens and all the crossbench, because this is something that people have been saying they want action on, and we now have an opportunity to do that.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, the Coalition wants you to go further. Have you reached out to Michaelia Cash, your opposite number?
 
MURRAY WATT: I haven't at this point because we've been waiting until the legislation is finalised, but I certainly would be briefing Michaelia Cash or whoever the Opposition would like me to before we introduce that legislation. I have had, obviously, contact though, with both the ACTU and a number of employer groups over recent days to get their feedback on what we're proposing. And I have to say, I think one of the things that's really striking here is that we have a rare opportunity where we have the overwhelming majority of the union movement supporting strong action. We have employer groups largely supporting the government's intentions and plans. And, of course, we have a government that's prepared to act. So, I don't think we should waste that opportunity with political games, whether it be from the Coalition or the Greens. And they would have to explain to the Australian public why they would be standing in the way of taking action against John Setka and the CFMEU and importantly, all of the organised criminals that unfortunately seem to surround this union.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: There's been fresh allegations about the CFMEU, the Health Services Union's Diana Asmar is also being investigated. Now, John Setka stood down ahead of all of the stories rolling out about his conduct and others. Should Diana Asmar step down?
 
MURRAY WATT: Look, I think that would be the right thing to do. These are very serious allegations that have now been made against Ms Asmar and her union. Of course, I've seen that the Fair Work Commission General Manager is considering taking action against the union around those allegations. We would certainly support that action if it were to be taken. But I think it is in the interests of the members for Ms Asmar to step down. The whole way I'm approaching both of these issues; the CFMEU, the HSU. This is not about taking down unions. This is about taking down people who are letting down their members and the union movement overall. When it comes to the CFMEU, really, this is about an attack on organised crime. This is not an attack on unions. This is about people who've betrayed the values of the union movement and betrayed their members. Every single day, union officials go out there and fight hard, often in dangerous circumstances, to get better pay and conditions for their members. Unfortunately, we have seen a small group of people who have betrayed those values, and they need to be disciplined for it.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: We kept hearing that it was just confined to the CFMEU. Now it's bled through to the Health Services Union. Given Labor - the Labor Party's historical and contemporary links with the union movement, this is a pretty bad look for that movement, isn't it?
 
MURRAY WATT: I think it's incredibly disappointing for anyone like me who believes in unionism. And I think the vast majority of Australians recognise the benefits of unionism. As I say, unions are an absolute force for good in Australia. They've been responsible for delivering better pay, better safety, better conditions in work for years. And we can't allow that good work to be tarnished by a small group of individuals who are doing the wrong thing and letting their members down. I mean, the way I'm thinking about this is that we're approaching this to uphold Labor values. Labor values are about fairness, they're about respect for other people, they're about safe workplaces. And the people involved in these activities have betrayed those values. So, I think it's actually a good thing for the Labor Party that we're taking serious action and upholding our values in cohort with the union movement.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: In court documents, the Fair Work Commission claims the CFMEU breached workplace law 2,600 times in more than 20 years, accumulating $24 million in fines. The story keeps getting bigger and bigger and it's, you know, this is the current incarnation of the story, but we've seen many, many times the CFMEU, even its predecessor in the spotlight. Your government abolished the ABCC. I've already heard the arguments, as has our audience, about why you abolished it. But don't you need to have, even if you don't believe in that, that kind of structure, but a structure that you come up with that is a kind of cop on this particular industry, given this particular industry and this union has such systemic issues?
 
MURRAY WATT: I guess the fact that this action is now occurring, led by the Fair Work Commission General Manager, backed in court by the government of the day, with a government that's prepared to introduce legislation if need be, demonstrates that we do have the right checks and balances on what's going on in the industry. Every bit of action that is being taken against the CFMEU and the organised criminals around it is being done under current legislation. So, we have those powers to take that action. I mean, as you say you've heard before, we don't support bringing back the ABCC. All of these allegations surfaced while the ABCC was in operation. Productivity in the construction sector fell while the ABCC was in place. It didn't go up. It's actually gone up since the ABCC was abolished. So, unfortunately, the ABCC -
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: And that's why I said not the same as the ABCC, because I've heard, and I can see some of the criticisms of it in terms of the sorts of work it was doing. So, if you think that it needs to be a tougher cop on the beat, why not make one?
 
MURRAY WATT: As I say, we are in the process of taking the strongest action that has ever been taken against the CFMEU in Australia's history. It goes far beyond deregistering the BLF, which happened a few decades ago, and the Opposition continue to support despite the problems associated with that. So, if we're able to take the strongest action against the CFMEU, which we are, to me that demonstrates that we've got the powers we need to clean this up. I mean, I have said that there are a range of issues that we will give consideration to going forward. People have talked about whistleblower powers. People have talked about extra police resources. There's a range of issues that we are open to considering. But right now my focus is making sure that the process enables this union to be put into administration.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, you can see it, administration isn't enough? Administration isn't enough?
 
MURRAY WATT: You would be aware that even before I took on the role, Tony Burke in this position referred a number of allegations to the AFP. He asked the Fair Work Ombudsman to take action. We're reviewing government procurement. So, there's a range of actions that we're taking. But when it comes to the legal process, I would argue that the evidence is there, we're taking action right now under the powers that exist under current laws.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just finally, Minister, there is obviously a huge issue around this particular union, but you've just foreshadowed other legislation, perhaps whistleblower and other legislation. There's also, of course, the police. Just talk to me about a joint taskforce and what you're looking at in terms of being able to set up something that has reach across different jurisdictions.
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah. Look, I've talked to Mark Dreyfus, the Attorney General, about this because, of course, the Federal Police sits with Mark. It's too early for us to be able to say what we might do in that space, but we're certainly giving a consideration. The discussions I've had with a range of stakeholders, employers, union representatives, some of the crossbench, indicate that there is interest in that topic as some sort of extra policing effort. So, that is something that we're giving consideration to. But as I say, my number one focus really, since I've been in this job has been ensuring that we can get the union into administration, enable that to occur, and ensuring that there's legislation ready to go if that's what it takes.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thank you for joining us this morning.
 
MURRAY WATT: No worries, Patricia.