Interview with Patricia Karvelas - ABC RN Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The embattled Construction, Forestry and Maritime Employees Union - the CFMEU, as it's known - may be facing allegations of corruption and criminal infiltration, but it still appears to have supporters. 50,000 workers in Melbourne and thousands more in other capitals across the country, including Brisbane, downed tools in protest yesterday to march against the Federal Government's decision to place the CFMEU in administration. Their message was clear; they say the Government has denied the CFMEU the right to procedural fairness, or a fair hearing.
 
Murray Watt is the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, and I spoke to him a very short time ago. Minister Murray Watt, welcome to the program.
 
MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Morning, Patricia, good to be with you.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Were you surprised at how many people gathered to march yesterday in support of the CFMEU right across Australia? In Melbourne it was gridlock.
 
MURRAY WATT: Not especially, PK. I mean I think everyone understands that when you decide to take action against the CFMEU construction division, there's going to be a response, and that's what we saw yesterday. The vast majority of the people attending those rallies were CFMEU members, but the reality is that it doesn't change the fact that the construction division of the CFMEU is now in administration as a first step towards cleaning up the union, ridding it of the organised crime elements that unfortunately have penetrated it, and returning it to being a union that focuses on the best interests of its members rather than getting caught up in all sorts of other activities.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: A series of leaders of what are really blue‑collar unions - the Maritime Union of Australia, the Rail, Tram and Bus Union, the Electrical Trades Union - all spoke at the Brisbane rally in support of the CFMEU. Does it concern you that other unions are joining forces with the CFMEU?
 
MURRAY WATT: Again, not particularly, PK. I mean if you look at the unions that participated in the rally yesterday beyond the CFMEU, it largely involved a couple of other construction‑related industries plus other divisions of the CFMEU, in the case of the Maritime Union. So again, I wasn't particularly surprised to see them being supportive.
 
But I think the point needs to be made, there were an awful lot of unions who were not there yesterday, in fact the vast majority of unions and union members were not participating in yesterday's rally, and that's not a surprise when you consider the fact that only recently the ACTU National Executive passed a resolution supporting the union being put into administration. This action has the overwhelming support of the union movement, union officials and union members, and I think that's because they recognise the damage that has been done to the union movement through the constant unlawful and criminal behaviour that unfortunately has penetrated the CFMEU.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: The ETU Victorian Secretary, Troy Gray, told the rally in Melbourne there were three or four legal challenges brewing with five unions funding them. Five unions funding them must be alarming to you, and how can they remain affiliated with the ALP if they're funding such an action?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I guess let's wait and see what actually happens. This is the statement that was yesterday, and we'll wait and see whether that materialises or not. As you will have heard me say, we drafted the legislation in a way to give it the best chance of withstanding legal challenge. We have absolutely expected that the CFMEU, and potentially other unions, would seek to challenge the legislation.
 
But again I think the point needs to be made that while there is some support for the CFMEU within the union movement, the overwhelming majority of unions, union officials and union members are supportive of what we're doing. I mean we need to recognise that every single day decent unions, decent union officials and their members go into bat for each other, they do incredibly important work ensuring that workers in all industries get better pay and conditions-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK.
 
MURRAY WATT: ‑safer workplaces and-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Can I just interrupt to say ‑ you say, you know, we don't know yet. If they do fund the action, is that grounds to break the affiliation with the ALP?
 
MURRAY WATT: Oh, look, that's probably more matters for the party to answer, Patricia, but again, we'll wait and see.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But what do you think? What are your instincts on this?
 
MURRAY WATT: Oh, I'm not going to buy into a hypothetical. I mean, lots of people make comments in the heat of the moment-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Doesn't look hypothetical? Well, it wasn't just the heat of the moment.
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, yeah, lots of people make comments in the heat of the moment, and I understand that, but I think let's wait and see what actually happens, and what legal challenges actually get funded, and I think we'd make some decisions at that point.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: The ETU confirmed it would withhold a million from Labor and use some of that will money to fund legal challenges. What's your response to that? They've been quite clear about that $1 million the ETU will withhold from Labor.
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, I've seen those comments, and you know, obviously it's a matter for the ETU what they decide to do here. I guess I would encourage them to also reflect on the massive gains that have been delivered to their members by this Labor Government. Just this week we brought in new changes to workplace laws, things like right to disconnect, we’ve got changes happening today for minimum standards for transport workers, we're investing huge amounts in skills and training, which I know the ETU is incredibly interested in. So I guess I'd ask them to think about the range of things that this Government has done that have supported unions and supported workers, including in their industry.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: In fact you're under fire for being ‑ for providing and making laws that have been too union‑friendly. Are they ungrateful?
 
MURRAY WATT: Oh, I wouldn't call anyone ungrateful, Patricia, that wouldn't be my language, I think-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: You can use your own word, I mean, you know, they're saying they're going to withdraw, withhold $1 million from the ALP, the ETU. You've just outlined all the laws that actually advantaged them. I'm just trying to work out what's going on here.
 
MURRAY WATT: As I say, I think it's a matter for the ETU to make their own decisions. I'm not going to lecture them or give them advice about that, but I think it is reasonable to point out the range of things that we've done that have supported the union movement, and most importantly supported workers, the members of those unions. We were elected on a platform of delivering wages, more secure work and safer workplaces, and that's what we've done, including in the changes that come into force this week.
 
But as I say, my focus really has been on making sure that we take strong action to clean up one division of one union. This is not an exercise targeting other unions or even other divisions of the CFMEU. And I think it will be in the interests of the members of that union to have a cleaner union. As I've said before, construction work is hard, dangerous work, and workers in the industry deserve strong, effective representation. Unfortunately this union has lost its way, has been infected by organised crime, bikies and violence, and it's got to stop. It doesn't reflect well on that union, and it doesn't reflect well on the union movement overall.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: If you're just tuning in, you're listen to go Radio National Breakfast. Patricia Karvelas with you, and my guest is Murray Watt who's the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations.
 Minister, the Brisbane protest featured a placard depicting Prime Minister Anthony Albanese as Hitler and calling him "Albanazi". What's your response to that? It's pretty alarming imagery.
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah. I was pretty disturbed by some of the imagery at the Brisbane rally yesterday, that the placards as you say, depicting the Prime Minister as Adolf Hitler and invoking Nazi references. There was also a coffin I saw there with the Prime Minister's face on it. I don't think that reflects well on the CFMEU construction division, and again it confirms the kind of culture that has developed under its current leadership, which through the administration process has been removed.
 
I think it's also very, very disturbing that we saw a Greens MP, Max Chandler-Mather, decide to share a stage with the construction union yesterday in Brisbane, despite those placards invoking Nazi references, despite the coffins with the Prime Minister's face. I mean what does it say to people that a Greens MP puts grandstanding in front of a crowd above making a statement about what's respectful or not?
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK, just to provide his explanation, he said that the reporting amounted to untested allegations, that we should be able to have a process through the courts for testing the allegations. Does he have a point, when we do have a system where we are, you know, people are presumed to be innocent before, you know, the court system plays out?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, a couple of things on that, Patricia. You might recall that before we legislated to put the CFMEU into administration, I made very clear publicly and privately that I asked for the CFMEU to consent to the application that had been made to the court by the Fair Work Commission General Manager. Had they consented to that, then we wouldn't have needed legislation. So I would argue that that provided some procedural fairness to the CFMEU to stay in control of their own destiny. But they still haven't consented to that court case, and that's why we acted.
 
But more broadly, I think, you know, everyone has seen the footage for themselves, over recent weeks and recent months. And you know, the fact that we've seen a Greens MP share a stage with an organisation that has condoned violence, organised crime and misogyny I think says a lot about him and about the Greens Party if they're prepared to do that for their own political advantage.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: He says individuals may be guilty of that, but they're just individuals, the vast people in the crowd are workers that deserve rights. What's your response to that?
 
MURRAY WATT: I 100 percent agree that the workers attending those rallies deserve rights, and that's exactly why we're determined to clean up the union so that as a union it focuses on those workers' best interests.
 
You know, I saw Max trying to sort of conflate what we're doing against the leadership of the union with how we're treating the union workers. We want a strong, effective union to represent those members' interests, and unfortunately that is not happening because of the infiltration of organised crime, bikies and violence, that it would seem a Greens MP is prepared to condone. When you share a stage with a group, you make a choice, and you're endorsing the culture and behaviour of that organisation. That's exactly what Greens MP Max Chandler-Mather did yesterday. I mean what must his voters think; the university students, the nurses, the teachers, the women, who have increasingly been voting for Greens? We've now got a Greens MP sharing a stage endorsing a union that's been racked by allegations of violence and misogyny, and I think he needs to explain that, especially when he's clearly just doing it for his own political advantage.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: You think it's just for his political advantage?
 
MURRAY WATT: Absolutely. I mean-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Like, on what is basis?
 
MURRAY WATT: ‑the grandstanding that we constantly see in particular from Max Chandler-Mather, I mean the most dangerous place you can possibly be is between Max Chandler-Mather and a TV camera. It's all about trying to get his profile up, it's about seeking political advantage, and it doesn't seem to matter what the cause is, and he's prepared to do it, as I say, even if that involved endorsing an organisation racked by allegations on film of misogyny and violence. I mean, we've all seen the video of senior union officials in this particular union threatening to bash owners of an Indigenous labour hire company. Is that the kind of behaviour that Max Chandler-Mather and the Greens support?  The Labor Party certainly doesn't.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, I heard in an interview on 7.30 with my fabulous colleague, Sarah Ferguson, and he denounced misogyny and that kind of behaviour. Is that not enough?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, he says one thing on 7.30 and he does completely the opposite when he's on the stage with officials from the union that have condoned this behaviour and have allowed this kind of behaviour to go on unpunished. You can't have it both ways. I mean the Labor Party's position is clear. We absolutely support unionism; we were borne out of the union movement and remain committed to union values. Unfortunately, we have one division of one union that does no longer share those values and is more interested in propping up violence, misogyny and bad behaviour, and we're determined to tackle it.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Those workers yesterday took unprotected industrial action. Should they face consequences?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I mean that's not a matter for me, it's a matter for their employers what they do about that, but you will have seen the statement from the Fair Work Ombudsman that has reminded employers that people who take unprotected action can have their pay docked, and also that there are options for employers to exercise where unprotected action has been taken. So really it's a matter for employers now what they do about that.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you expect that the decision you've made in relation to the CFMEU in administration and taking the union on will lead to real ramifications for Labor's election campaign?
 
MURRAY WATT: Oh, I don't necessarily think so, PK. I mean we expected that this would be a bit bumpy. I mean this is a pretty massive thing that we're-
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Less money, fewer volunteers.
 
MURRAY WATT: This is a massive thing that we're doing to restore faith in this particular union and ensure that it focuses on its members. I don't think it necessarily has to reflect in fewer volunteers or support for the party from our blue‑collar base. As I say there's only one party at the moment in Australia that is delivering the kind of cost‑of‑living relief that working class people desperately need. There's only one party that is actually delivering the kind of wage increases that people need to deal with cost‑of‑living pressures.
 
Just this week we've seen again Peter Dutton confirm that in he's elected he will repeal various rights that we've introduced, and he says there's more to come. Angus Taylor's talked about a targeted package of repeals of workplace laws. So I think once we get down to it and people have a choice as to who's going to be delivering the kind of support they need to deal with cost‑of‑living pressures, I'd be confident that people will vote on that basis.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, thank you for joining us.
 
MURRAY WATT: No worries, PK.