Interview with Patricia Karvelas – ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Let's bring in Industrial Relations and Employment Minister Murray Watt. Murray Watt, welcome.

MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: G'day, Patricia. Good to be with you.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: A lot of anticipation around this interest rate decision tomorrow, but I wonder about the counter. How are you preparing around the possibility of no rate cut tomorrow?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I think everyone understands that all Australians will be keenly watching the decision from the Reserve Bank tomorrow, Patricia. But frankly, the government's approach, regardless of the outcome, will be the same in the sense that we will be relentlessly focusing on bringing down cost-of-living pressures for Australians. That will be the case whether there's a rate cut or not. Of course, if you look back over the history of this term in office, our number one priority at all times has been assisting Australians deal with cost-of-living pressures, whether that be by helping lift their wages in my policy space or by providing a range of cost-of-living relief, and that will certainly be our position regardless of tomorrow's outcome.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, so regardless, you're going to be, you know, advancing that strategy. But can Australians really get to tomorrow afternoon and bear not having an interest rate cut?

MURRAY WATT: Well, as I say, I know that most households around Australia will be paying very close attention tomorrow. And I suspect that broadcast when the RBA makes its decision, will probably outrate almost anything in Australia this year, whether it be grand finals or anything else. But I guess what I'm saying is that just as today, yesterday, last year, our focus has been assisting Australians with their cost-of-living pressures. That will remain the case tomorrow, the day after that, and for the remainder of this term.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let's move on to another issue which is huge, particularly to our NSW viewers. The NSW Premier, Chris Minns, says the government cannot give in to the union's blackmail. That's, of course, in relation to the transport strike, the train strike. "It would only embolden them", he says. He says, "I could solve this dispute this afternoon by handing over a blank check to the union and agreeing to their latest outrageous claims, but it wouldn't solve the issue permanently". Do you agree with Chris Minns?

MURRAY WATT: Well, clearly there's got to be a limit to what any government can afford to pay in a wage dispute. That would be the case if we were talking about a Federal Government dispute or in a NSW Government dispute, as is the case here. I absolutely understand the incredible frustration of Sydney commuters. This has been going on for months now and I think most people would have expected that this dispute would have been resolved. I think it's a good thing that the Fair Work Commission will be hearing an application from the NSW Government on Wednesday, where they'll be seeking to suspend industrial action for a period of time so the bargaining can continue without that threat looming over it, and I think all of us have got an interest in seeing this resolved very, very quickly. I and other colleagues of mine have been in regular contact with Ministers in the NSW Government, with representatives of the union movement as recently as today, urging both sides to come to a resolution of this so that things can move on.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok. Will you consider using federal intervention if the dispute isn't resolved?

MURRAY WATT: Well, there is a very small power for a Federal Minister to get involved. It's a power that's never been used by any Federal Minister of any political colouring. I see Michaelia Cash calling for me to intervene and that's very convenient for her to do that. What she doesn't mention to people is that she never used this power herself in all the time that she was the Federal IR Minister. Look, I think, as I say, I think all of us will be keenly watching the outcome of the Fair Work Commission decision on Wednesday. I'm looking forward to seeing what they have to do, have to say about that. And as I say, hopefully, we can see this resolved very quickly without the need for any intervention from anyone. It's up to the parties to come to a resolution.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, can you tell me who you've spoken to today? You said you've spoken to both parties. Who are you speaking to?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, look, I'd probably rather not disclose individual names, but I've been in regular contact, both on the weekend, today, and over the last couple of months with Ministers in the NSW Government, representatives of the trade union movement consistently putting the position that we need to see this resolved. The people who are losing here are NSW and Sydney commuters, and I think everyone owes it to them to have this dispute resolved. The workers in the train system --

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Sure, but Chris Minns reckons that the union's having a bit of a lend, like he's pretty upset. He says these are outrageous claims. Have you told Chris Minns that you sympathise with his position or do you think he's being too hardline?

MURRAY WATT: Well, as I say, I've had a number of conversations with different Ministers. It's probably best that I not go into the details of that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, then tell me what your view is, then. I'm not asking you to tell me what you've said to them, but you can tell us, the viewers who want to know. What is your view? Do you think that they are being outrageous? They're being too over the top?

MURRAY WATT: Well, as I said in my answer to your first question, I think everyone understands that for any government, there is a limit to what can be paid. The NSW Government is a major employer. They still have different enterprise bargaining negotiations underway with other workers across the public sector. So, I can understand that they recognise that there's a limit on what they can afford to pay. My focus is trying to get this resolved, that's the message that I've been conveying to both sides over a period of time now. And as I say, hopefully, the Fair Work Commission will be able to bring this to a head this week.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Are you worried that the train dispute is damaging the Labor brand?

MURRAY WATT: Look, I mean, that's really up to Sydneysiders to decide. I think people can see that this is a State Government dispute with unions rather than a Federal Government dispute. But of course, we would like to see this dispute resolved quickly and easily, just as you would with any dispute. That's just not always going to happen that way.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Level with me, though. There's an election looming. Are you thinking, "Oh, my goodness, why can't they sort this out?"

MURRAY WATT: Look, as I say, I have been frustrated, probably not as much as Sydney commuters, that this dispute has gone on so long, but it's not because there's an election in the wings federally. I'm frustrated because I think Sydneysiders want to see this dispute resolved. I think they're getting really annoyed by the uncertainty around the train network. That's my motivation for trying to get this resolved rather than anything else. In terms of industrial action more broadly, it's not often recognised, but industrial action has actually fallen across Australia compared to what it was under the Coalition. So, you know, that's one of the side benefits, if you like, of the industrial relations reforms that we've passed, is that it is encouraging more cooperation, more agreement making and we'd like to see an agreement reached here as well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Murray Watt, the Business Council of Australia and the Minerals Council of Australia are pretty upset with a review of your government's workplace reforms. They say it wasn't independent, it was a political charade and that it's economically dangerous. They don't think that you've commissioned an independent even-handed report. What's your response to that?

MURRAY WATT: Well, for starters, I think that's grossly insulting to the two eminent experts in the field that we appointed to do this review. We have two professors, two of Australia's leading experts on industrial relations and economics and employment, who've commissioned this review. They consulted widely with employer groups, with unions. Frankly, it just seems like a case of sour grapes from some of the employer groups that they didn't get the recommendations they were after. It's a bit like cricketers or tennis players blaming an umpire when they lose a match. The fact is that the panel did consult widely with all groups and everyone who's got a decision. I mean, I think it's hardly surprising that we see representatives of big business out there complaining that because of Labor's laws, people's wages are rising again. I mean, it was big business that was benefiting for 10 years from Coalition wage suppression. We have changed that. We make no apologies for the fact that under Labor, the average workers' wages are rising in a way that they did not rise under the Coalition. And what do you know, big business is squealing about it.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, but their issue, though, is in relation to productivity as well, and on that front, there is a pretty significant problem going on, right? Productivity is still lagging. That's their complaint. Don't they have a point?

MURRAY WATT: Well, in fact, if you look at the most recent figures that came out from the Bureau of Statistics only a few weeks ago, labour productivity in Australia is actually rising. What these big business groups never mention is that the decade the Coalition was in power saw the lowest productivity growth that Australia has seen for 60 years. Now, I don't remember big business complaining about that at the time. Now that there's a Labor government which is lifting wages, lifting jobs, bringing inflation down and bringing industrial action down, now we hear from big business. And it's all about the fact that they're having to pay people more at a time when people need those wage rises to deal with cost-of-living pressures. The independent review had a really close look at the reforms that we introduced. They found that on the whole, they were working as intended, that there were not unintended consequences. They actually did make some recommendations about things that weren't quite working as well as they could be. So, it's not as if the review has been a complete whitewash, and we'll obviously listen to those recommendations.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: As we're going into this election period, I mean, obviously it hasn't officially been called, but we are getting into that part of the cycle. Do you want to be having a fight with big business? Because it sounds like you want to be having a fight with big business.

MURRAY WATT: Well, we're not seeking to have a fight with anyone, but what we are fighting for is for the average working person to get a decent pay rise. That was the point of changing our laws, that we had to reverse this trend that we saw under the Coalition, aided and abetted by big business, where wages were going backwards, real wages were falling significantly when we came to office. We've now had four quarters in a row of wages rising above inflation, really essential for people at a time of cost-of-living pressures. And I think what we're seeing as we get closer to the election is that big business is in cahoots with Peter Dutton wanting to drive down wages and wanting to tear up our reforms which are actually seeing people get pay rises, and if big business is going to complain about it, then I'm going to stand up for working people.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, just on another issue on NZYQ, are you anticipating a challenge to this in the courts?

MURRAY WATT: Well, Tony Burke made clear yesterday when he announced this that he expects that there will be a challenge. I think the Minister for Immigration, whoever holds that portfolio, is the person who's most litigated against across government. So, I would expect that we probably will see that challenged. But we're confident, based on the legal advice that we took at the time of drafting legislation, that it will be upheld. And Tony has made clear that our number one priority here is community safety, and these people are better off, from the Australian point of view, outside Australia rather than in.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Why are we trying to offload this problem to a vastly smaller, poorer and less well-equipped nation?

MURRAY WATT: Well, my understanding from what Tony said was that Nauru actually made the approach to Australia about taking some of these people in.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: He's also talked about the option of other third nations. So, on that argument, do they have to approach you first for it to be a fair deal, or is the government canvassing other nations?

MURRAY WATT: Look, I'm not close enough to that to know myself exactly what discussions Tony has had with other countries. But in this instance, Nauru made the approach and we were prepared to do that. Of course, it resolved the legal issue that had arisen from that High Court decision, which was that the High Court found that people without a reasonable prospect of being removed couldn't be held in detention. Now, these people, there is a reasonable prospect of them going to Nauru and that impediment is resolved. But in terms of any other discussions with other countries, I'm just not across that level of detail.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Now, a story is breaking in the Nine papers that Barnaby Joyce is to be denied a Ministry if the Coalition wins. There's reporting in that story that I have not independently verified that he was speaking to One Nation and then continued obviously in Veterans in the Shadow portfolio. Are you surprised by that development, especially the One Nation revelation?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, I saw that report breaking just before I came on air, Patricia. And you know, I guess none of us should really be surprised about the latest edition of the Barnaby Joyce soap opera that's been going the entire time he's been here. But I think the most important point about that story is that David Littleproud is already out there apparently saying who's going to be in the Ministry and who's going to be in the Cabinet when they win the election. These guys are so cocky, they think they've got it in the bag. I saw the interview that Peter Dutton did with the News Corp tabloids over the weekend saying, "We will win the next election". I mean, the arrogance of these people to think that they've won the election without releasing any policies at all and that they can start dishing out portfolios and measuring the curtains. I think Australians don't want that level of arrogance in their politicians. From a Labor point of view, we know that we've got to earn people's trust each and every day, and that's what we'll be doing right up until the election.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Murray Watt, I imagine we will talk many times. Thank you for joining us this afternoon.

MURRAY WATT: Look forward to it. Thanks PK.