Interview with Ali Moore - ABC Melbourne Drive

ALI MOORE, HOST: How much progress has been made in the bid to clean up the CFMEU? And what does it mean for the construction industry, which has been plagued by rising costs? The Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, who is also responsible for the CFMEU Administrator, addressed a National Construction Industry forum today and then Minister Murray Watt joins you in the studio. Minister, welcome to Drive.
 
MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: G'day Ali, good to be with you.
 
ALI MOORE: Industry and union reps were at today's meeting with you. You agreed to develop an Industry Blueprint for Change. What is that?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, I've literally just come from that meeting, Ali, in town here in Melbourne. It was a really positive meeting, I think, held between representatives of government, employer groups, subbies and unions - everyone involved in the construction industry.
 
And I think what was really notable out of the meeting was that there was a really shared understanding that while there is an industry that people are proud to work in, there's a lot of recognition that there's a lot of things that need to change. And we understand that some of these issues will take some time to resolve.
 
But what we've agreed to today across the board is to work together, rather than through conflict, work together cooperatively to really properly define what are the key issues that people want to see resolved in the construction industry and how we're going to go about resolving them. So I wouldn't want to pretend that everything's been fixed - that will take time. I think there's some issues we can resolve quickly, some will take longer. But it's pretty remarkable, I think, to have building employers and unions in the same room together, agreeing to work together to resolve some of these issues.
 
ALI MOORE: And I want to get to what they might be focused on, but can I ask you about the reports of - you say you've got the unions and the industry - there are reports that there are some unions who are considering setting up a rival to the ACTU. They say that they're actually divided. How divided do you think the union movement is over the CFMEU?
 
MURRAY WATT: I don't think it's divided at all, Ali. In fact, this morning I also addressed the ACTU national executive here in Melbourne and almost every single union in the country was represented at that meeting. There is no doubt whatsoever that the overwhelming majority of unions and union members support action being taken to clean up the CFMEU. I think that the union movement generally acknowledges that it has been very damaging for the union movement as a whole to have a small number of people within the union movement bring disgrace on the union movement and the very good work that unions do for Australians. So I've seen others point out that the group that met as a rival group today, represents about 6 percent of union members across the board. So I’m-
 
ALI MOORE: You're happy to ignore them?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well we're going to get on with it. We're going to get on with cleaning up the CFMEU Construction Division and developing a construction industry that works for everyone. If other people want to go and have other meetings, that's fine. But I'm more convinced than ever, having spoken to the ACTU National Executive, that the union movement supports change.
 
ALI MOORE: When you talk about the blueprint and you've put out a statement talking about the industry's culture, is it just about the CFMEU's construction division or is there a bigger problem?
 
MURRAY WATT: It's a really good point, Ali, and I think, well, not just I think, but what was echoed today across the board is that people acknowledge this is not just about one division of one union. I've made the point on several occasions now that while there are some really serious allegations facing CFMEU officials, if someone in a union has taken a bribe, then someone outside that union has paid that bribe. And those sort of people need to be held to account as well. And I was really pleased to hear again today from some of the employer groups that they recognise there's been bad behaviour in their ranks as well, in terms of some of the businesses involved, some of the labour hire companies who appear to be complicit in some of the worst activities that have been going on. And as I say, what we want to make sure of is that we can build an industry that does work for everyone, that workers’ rights are protected, that their safety is protected. It's a dangerous industry to work in.
 
ALI MOORE: But how does a blueprint- you're working on forming this blueprint, what will that look like? So does that mean that you have to go through, and you forensically analyse every deal and decide whether a bribe has been paid and sanction those who have paid it, does it mean mass sackings? Does it mean different processes? What does it actually look like?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah so I guess one of the reasons for bringing this group together today and agreeing to develop a blueprint is that I'm satisfied that through the administrator of the CFMEU, we do have a process underway to deal with the issues that have emerged in that union. And, of course, we've also got the Fair Work Ombudsman now taking action and investigating bad behaviour as well. There have been some police referrals arising from the recent media coverage-
 
ALI MOORE: So you're confident, and that investigative confidence extends to the other side, the people who paid the bribe, not the people who just –
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, clearly the role of the administrator is effectively to run the union on behalf of its members until it emerges from administration. So, its focus is going to be on the activities of the union. The administrator has the power to refer matters that come before him to the police, to the Fair Work Ombudsman, whoever is the right regulator to take action. And that is already occurring. You may have seen in the papers this morning, we saw that the Fair Work Ombudsman has over 40 investigations –
 
ALI MOORE: 40.
 
MURRAY WATT: - they are matters that involve union officials and employers. So, you know, this is not an exercise in diminishing workers’ rights or pay or conditions. It's about cleaning up the industry. And I never expected in this first meeting that we held today to be able to properly define exactly what issues need to be resolved. That'll take a bit of time for us to- but what did come through is that there are issues that everyone thinks are problems; you know, some of the harassment in the workplace, whether that be sexual harassment or violence and intimidation, the desire to have projects that are delivered on time, on budget and safely, that came from employers and union representatives. So there's a lot there that we can work on together I think.
 
 ALI MOORE: You're listening to the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Murray Watt. We're talking about the big meeting that was held today is working on a blueprint now cleaning up the construction industry. How much has actually changed, in a practical sense since the administrator was appointed to the CFMEU's Construction Division?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah so we need to remember that it's still pretty early days in this administration process - I think we're up to about eight or nine weeks since the administrator was appointed. He has been appointed for a minimum of three years. There are some divisions of the union across the country that we think might come out of administration earlier than that if the administrator is satisfied that they're clean. There are others that may take quite a bit longer than three years.
 
ALI MOORE: And that would be, I assume Victoria would not be in the early release?
 
MURRAY WATT: I would be surprised if Victoria- if the Victorian division came out before three years. That'll be for the administrator to decide, but I'd be surprised. But already, even though it's reasonably early days, the administrator has terminated the employment of about a dozen officials from the CFMEU, has suspended more from office while investigations are undertaken-
 
ALI MOORE: But in a practical sense, on a worksite, what does that mean? So, you lose all your union officials. What happens then?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I'm glad you asked this because just to clarify one thing that has been misreported previously, there were some reports when the administrator was first appointed that there were about 270 officials who'd been sacked. What actually happened was that there were about a dozen paid officials, secretaries, assistant secretaries of the union who were sacked. There were a range of other office bearers who were voluntary roles, serving on branch executives and things like that, who have had their roles vacated. But organisers are still employed by the union to make sure that workers are represented carefully. As I said before, this is a dangerous industry. We need to make sure that construction workers are getting their interests protected, that they're safe, that they're being paid properly and under the administrator's control, all of that infrastructure still exists, but I would expect that over time, as more information comes to light, we will see action taken against other officials within the union. But equally, we will see action taken against employers who've done the wrong thing, too.
 
ALI MOORE: So, the blueprint, when do you expect to have the blueprint?
 
MURRAY WATT: Six months, is what we agreed on today.
 
ALI MOORE: That's quite a long time.
 
MURRAY WATT: It is, you know, obviously that includes the Christmas period as well, which, you know, people won't be working on those sort of things.
 
ALI MOORE: There's no mystery, is there, as to what some of the issues are, the bigger question is how you address them?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, and that will take a little bit of time, I think, to do. I think six months is a reasonable amount of time for some very disparate interests to come together and agree on exactly what those issues are and what we should do about them. But, as I say, even today, that there was some strong uniformity of views about some of the key issues facing the industry, those issues about behaviour on the work site. There is an interest in the productivity of the industry and what can be done about that in order to benefit not just employers, but taxpayers or homeowners who are building things, but also benefit workers, too. So I'm confident that even before Christmas, I think we'll start making some progress. We've already-
 
ALI MOORE: I suppose I'm struggling with the concept of exactly what a blueprint is. Can it ultimately be more than just putting in place new processes?
 
MURRAY WATT: I think definitely new processes will be required to deal with some of these issues. But what we're trying to get to is that it might be, for argument's sake, that everyone around the table can agree that there are millions of issues, but the key five - whatever the number might be - are these five. And here's what we're going to do together to resolve them. Some of them might actually be able to be dealt with through existing processes that government's got underway. But I think that there will be some new work that we'll need to commission out of that as well. The important thing out of today is simply getting agreement amongst groups who aren't noted for their level of agreement. That this is something that needs to be done and that they're going to work together to deliver it.
 
ALI MOORE: Murray Watt, can I ask you another question which is in your purview, and you did respond to this week - another story that we've covered. It's around the definition of small business and the call from the Chamber of Commerce and Industry to change that from 15 employees to 25 employees. This is under the Fair Work Legislation. You've rejected that. But as people told us, that legislation and that counting of 15 employees is all employees. So, it could be part time, full time, it could be casual. So, if you restructure your workforce to allow more of your employees to have more time off at their request, you may very quickly find yourself having gone from 15 to 20 employees with absolutely no change to your turnover or the size of your business at all. Why are we locked in at 15?
 
MURRAY WATT: Well, I think 15 has been the number now for quite a long time in workplace law, under both sides of politics, as the agreed number when it comes to a small business. The point I was making was that we actually do have a review underway by the Fair Work Ombudsman to look at this definition of small business that actually commenced under my predecessor, Tony Burke. And we'll see that review through. We'll obviously take note of its recommendations. But my fundamental point is that we are a Labor government. We are not about making it easier for employers to sack workers unfairly. One of the areas this is really important is, in terms of unfair dismissal laws-
 
ALI MOORE: Sure. And there is a difference, and we discussed that difference in exemption.
 
MURRAY WATT: Especially at the moment when people are really struggling with cost of living pressures. I can't think of a worse time to make it easier for employers to unfairly sack their workers.
 
ALI MOORE: But there must be some acknowledgement, if you're doing a review, that it's a relatively arbitrary number.
 
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, and that was recognised, I guess, when we first put through some of the workplace law changes over the last couple of years. And this is something that we're committed to do to a group of crossbenchers that have a look at that. As I say, that review's ongoing. We will definitely recognise recommendations. But, you know, I think it's interesting this week with the comments from Coalition Ministers, they are open to changing this definition and what that means is they are open to making it easier for employers to sack their workers. I think that's a terrible thing to do at this time.
 
ALI MOORE: Murray Watt, a final question without notice, but we have a conversation here every Wednesday called 'What If Wednesday'. We take a hypothetical and we ask, "what if?"
 
MURRAY WATT: Sounds dangerous!
 
ALI MOORE: Well, potentially. It's always usually in the realms of possibility, but we're going all out today because it is 774’s 100th birthday this week. So, our "what if" question is what if we privatised the ABC?
 
MURRAY WATT: First of all, that will never happen under a Labor government. I think that would be a terrible outcome for Australians. I grew up on the ABC. I'll reveal now, I'm 51 years of age, but I grew up on the ABC. I, for one, was happy when we had the old theme song brought back for the news, because it reminded me of days gone by.

My kids now listen and use ABC products. There's a reason that the ABC is the most trusted voice in Australia when it comes to news and current affairs. I think its independence from government and corporate interests is vital to that. I would never support the independence- the privatisation of the ABC and I can't believe anyone would.
 
ALI MOORE: You would support the independence of the ABC?
 
MURRAY WATT: Yes! Just to clarify that, yes, absolutely.
 
ALI MOORE: Murray Watt, thank you so much.
 
MURRAY WATT: Thanks, Ali.
 
ALI MOORE: Murray Watt there, Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations.