Television interview - Sky News Newsday with Laura Jayes

LAURA JAYES, HOST:    I want to go live now to the Employment and Workplace Relations Minister, Amanda Rishworth. Amanda, thanks so much for your time. Welcome back to the program. I’m going to ask you about AI and the revolution that is here, but I wanted to ask you about Matt’s story just there. You would have heard his reporting around child protection that the NT want to put in place. There has been some objection from people in your party about where that balance lies. Do you have any thoughts on that, any reaction to that? You heard there from the minister.

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS:    Well, I think what’s really important is looking out of what is in the best interest of the child, and of course making sure that they are safe and protected, but also connected with community is incredibly important. I haven’t had a detailed look at what the Northern Territory Government is pursuing, but these are complex issues and I think that thinking that a silver bullet is going to solve it is not correct. We need to all work together to make sure that children are safe and connected, and the wellbeing of children are put first and foremost.

LAURA JAYES:    Safety is before connectedness, though, surely.

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well look, I haven’t seen the detail of this, but of course safety is important, of course it’s critical. But we also need to ensure that communities are connected and the wellbeing of children is also critical. So look, I haven’t seen the specific legislation. I’m not able to really comment any further.

LAURA JAYES:    Okay. Let’s talk about AI now, because this is going to be red hot at the conference later this week, which is in your city of Adelaide. I wanted to get to your thinking around where this is all headed. I know it’s complex, but what actual right will a worker have before an employer rolls out an AI tool in their workplace that can potentially change their job?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, firstly I would say that Jobs and Skills Australia has done some really great work on what delivers the best productivity and best outcomes when it comes to rolling AI out in the workplace. And working and consulting with workers is a critical part of that to get good outcomes. Just by adopting AI in the workplace doesn’t mean you get the productivity gains. Workers do need to be consulted, they need to be supported in their capacity to use AI, to deliver the benefits. So, ensuring that workers are part of the conversation, that they are consulted, and that trust is there is actually really important.

I’ve actually set up a tripartite working group with business, unions and government to work through some of these issues, and what we know is trust is important because if trust isn’t there, workers won’t use AI and we will not see the benefits that come with it in the workplace.

LAURA JAYES:    Okay, but this is important. Is it a legal requirement as you envisage it or would it just be best practice?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    To be very clear, there is already requirements in the Fair Work Act to consult with workers with major changes in the workplace, particularly if there's redundancies involved. It is good practice to consult and there's already requirements to consult with workers around this. We are certainly looking at what does best practice look like, and how those laws around the requirement already to consult interact. But this is really important that if we're going to get good outcomes for business, then workers need to be part of that process and need to be consulted. But in addition to that, businesses have to invest in the capability of their workforce if they're really going to see the benefits of AI.

And look, AI can bring benefits to workers too, get rid of some of those routine tasks that can be quite boring. But we need to ensure that business, ensure the capability of their staff are there and they invest in their staff so they get the best outcomes.

LAURA JAYES:    Sure, but this comes back down to how much government intervention there is. I acknowledge, and you point out to us today, that there already is a requirement in the Fair Work Act, but this is about what you do going forward. Would you enhance those legal requirements for a business to consult? And I ask this because unions have just been pushing veto power.

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, I've been really clear that we don't envisage a veto power. What we have been doing, though, is through our tripartite working group, actually working through some of these issues. We've got business, unions and government sitting down at the table discussing these issues and we have agreed that trust is critical and we are exploring the ways to ensure that we can bolster trust when it comes to the adoption of AI. We’ve also agreed that transparency and capability are critical. So we'll keep working through these issues. This is fast moving, and so of course government’s got to respond.

LAURA JAYES:    But what’s your instinct here, Amanda? Is your instinct that it should be best practice, business and workers, without government being the middle-man here? I mean, they've done it in Victoria with work from home. I think there's a lot of fear that the federal government might go further when it comes to AI.

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, this is very fast moving and so I'm not going to try and predict the future here.

LAURA JAYES:    No, but what is your instinct? Do you want to avoid more government intervention here? Do you want to just put into place these practices whereby business and employees are working without government intervention and legal requirements?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, look, of course we're going to look at how we go forward. Legislation and intervention is always an option if things are not working. But I certainly want to see workers, unions and business sitting down and working together. I would like, of course, to see a good practice because it's better for businesses. If we have a look at where some of this implementation has failed, it's when the business hasn’t brought their workers along. So I would like to see it. I think it's critical that we do that. This is a fast-moving space, but I would like to see people take a best practice approach. But of course, you know, there's always government intervention if things go wrong.

LAURA JAYES:    Okay, I want to talk to you about skills as well, because as you say, this is very fast moving. Do we have the skills, the skilled workforce to embrace AI as you talk about, build the data centres, also build the homes that this country needs?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, of course, there's a range of different skills. And one of those is when you look at how to adopt AI in the workplace, obviously having some familiarity of AI, some capability around AI, but also, of course, critical thinking. AI gets it wrong. And so workers need to be, of course, in control, and being able to harness good bits of AI, but also recognise that it does get it wrong. So that’s AI in the workplace. When we look at, for example, data centres, the government's been really clear that we expect data centres and the construction of data centres to add to our skills and the skilling up of our nation.

LAURA JAYES:    [Talks over] No, but I'm talking about the workforce, Amanda. This is your portfolio. We saw the announcement last week. I'm not sure we have the workforce. I mean, we don't have all the carpenters that we need, all the engineers that we need to build housing. So how do we have them to build data centres? This is a real problem. Have you looked at the skills list?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Firstly, I would say that of course we are investing in skills, and we've made a big investment in things like tradies. But when it comes to data centres, we certainly will be looking at how those that are building data centres can contribute to our skills and the skilling up of our nation. That is important. And we want to see these jobs, but there is no doubt that we are putting effort into making sure that we are investing in trades. 

LAURA JAYES:    [Sure, but what about overseas workers? Because you invest in trades now, those tradies aren't ready for the next couple of years. So what about workers from overseas?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, we want to see the benefits of this investment flow to the Australian workforce, the jobs. We've got a lot of capability here. As I have said a number of times, and as Minister Giles has said, we are investing in Australians, skilling them up as well to take on these job opportunities.

LAURA JAYES:    Sure. Do we have enough workers to take on these job opportunities, though? Or are these investments passing us by?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, we will be looking at how, I think we do have the ability to train more people. …

LAURA JAYES:    I mean, do you think, or do we have the workers available right now?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, we have, of course, workforce shortages, which that is what we inherited from the previous government.

LAURA JAYES:    Right. So how are those- sure, but you've been in power four years now, Amanda Rishworth. Surely you've done something in the meantime …

AMANDA RISHWORTH:     Yeah, and we’re investing.

LAURA JAYES:    You're investing, but what are you doing about the gaps we have right now?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    We're investing in those training pathways. That's exactly what we're doing. For example, we have got big incentives on the table for people that are taking up trades in construction and in areas like electricians.

LAURA JAYES:    But I put it to you that we are thousands of people short in some of those critical areas. What are you doing to fill that skills gap other than then trading a workforce now that might be ready in a couple of years?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, of course there is a skilled migration list also that looks at those skills. But our focus has been absolutely on training up and catching up for the skills deficit that we’ve had. And we’re doing just that. We’re investing in many different training pathways.

LAURA JAYES:    How many workers from overseas are filling that deficit?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, I'm not able to give you that figure. What I'm telling you is there is a number of different pathways, employer-sponsored pathways, but I'm focused on training up …

LAURA JAYES:    You don’t have the figure, or you don’t know?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    I’m focused on training up Australians. That's what I'm focused up on, and that's what my portfolio and Minister Giles is also focused on.

LAURA JAYES:    Well, can’t you be focused on that as well as critically and urgently filling the skills gap that we have with overseas skilled workforce?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, we are urgently doing that. But in addition, we are also looking at how we better recognise skills.

LAURA JAYES:    … and why do we still have a gap?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, Laura, what we are doing is training people. That's what we're doing. But in addition, I would say, for example, in this budget, we want to better recognise the skills of migrants coming to the country. And so we've invested in the skills recognition and the ability to recognise those skills and get people that do come through the skilled migration pathway onto sites more quickly.

LAURA JAYES:    Isn’t it a problem, Minister, that the skills list hasn't changed since the government- the previous side of politics, the previous government, was in power? You haven't changed that in four years?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, that's not correct. 

LAURA JAYES:    Well, the problems have become way more acute. I'm just wondering whether the response has kept up.

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, we've seen more skilled migrants in construction, I think it's three times more, in construction than under the previous government. So we are focused on getting the skilled people that we need, but also skilling up Australians also. And that's what my focus has been, along with Minister Giles.

LAURA JAYES:    Okay, I appreciate that. And I appreciate you not having the figures right there, but I would be interested to see them. So I'll ask you down the track. Just quickly, One Nation level pegging with Labor on primary. Does that worry you? Particularly given, you know, we saw the previous South Australian election. We've got Alex Antic today also backing in Malcolm Roberts. What's going on in politics right now?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, look, there's obviously a lot of chaos and confusion when it comes to the arrangements between the Liberal Party and One Nation. It's pretty clear that they cannot form government without each other. And so, you know, I think that bodes so badly if they were to ever form government because it would be chaos and confusion. We know people are doing it tough, and that’s why we're very much focused on supporting Australians – supporting Australians with cost of living, supporting Australians with housing, supporting Australians with healthcare. That is where our focus is on.

Of course, the alternative is really chaos and division between One Nation, the Liberal Party and the National Party. It's hard to keep up what their policy positions are, but we're very clear-eyed about how we make this country better and invest in the future to support working Australians.

LAURA JAYES:    It's going to be a cracker conference, it seems like, there in Adelaide. Enjoy it. Great to have you back on the show. We'll see you soon.

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Thank you.