Interview with Sarah Ferguson - ABC 7:30 Report

SARAH FERGUSON, HOST:    How we treat the unemployed has been the cause of rancorous arguments in politics over the years, particularly over what welfare recipients should do in order to receive benefits. Labor is now proposing a reboot, while acknowledging for-profit providers have led to poor quality programs in the system. Amanda Rishworth is the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations. Amanda Rishworth, welcome to 7.30. 

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS:    Great to be with you. 

SARAH FERGUSON: Do you have a target for how many people this system that you're proposing will help get into the workplace? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, we have over 750,000 Australians at any one time in the current system. What I want to see from this new overhaul of the system is more people getting into work, getting that opportunity to work, but importantly, making sure that the resources to support people into work are being directed to where that need is. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    And have you put a target in place for what you want it to achieve, rather than the idea of a general good? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    When we look at where participants are, we've got 20 per cent spending more than five years in this system - that is simply not good enough. We need to be supporting these individuals into work. We also see the one in six, re-enter the employment services system within a year. I want to see more sustainable job placements and long-term outcomes. We always accept that people may have to re-enter the system, but one in six is also too high. So, they are some of the areas which we would like to see tracking down in the new system. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    And in order to understand how it will make a difference, that's really the key, isn't it - this most challenging cohort, the long-term unemployed, those people you're talking about, the 20 per cent of people stuck in the system for five years or more?. So, what will change to alter that? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well at the moment, we have really a one-size-fits-all system where the incentives that go to those providing the service really work for people that may be healthy, may have a post-secondary education and are not very far from the labour market. So, we need to change the way we fund services and the type of service that we provide to these people that are a very long way from the labour market. 

So, rather than try and incentivise them, putting in application after application for jobs they are just not going to get, how do we help them move closer to the labour market? How do we fund that? And importantly, what are the types of mutual obligations we set for people so that they are effective. I am really sick of this debate of too soft or too hard mutual obligations. I want to see effective mutual obligations that support people get into work. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    Now, just before we come to mutual obligations, I mean, in the current system, there are bonuses for service providers who take one of those people from that complicated cohort and get them into work, you know, up to $4,000 or $5,000 - it's not working. So, what's going to be different? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, I am wanting to see a whole system change. When you just fund individuals with an extra bonus, you don't get a new service provision, a different type of service provision. What we want to see, and we will be designing in stream three, are embedded organisations that will work with people and connect people up also with support for their non-vocational barriers. And so that will be a different way we’d fund that service - not just topping up for an individual, but a different service model. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    So, who's going to be providing that? Because at the moment, presumably, the current service providers, and particularly the for-profit ones, are part of the reason why this system is not working. So, are you asking the same people to do a different job or do you want new providers coming in? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well as I said, there are three different streams. Stream one really is about the public service delivery. Stream two is more like the services we understand today. Stream three I imagine will be different types of providers - they will have a deep connection with community and be able to do this specialised intensive work. So, I think we will see - obviously there's detail to work through - but I think we will see different providers in stream two compared to stream three. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    Do you accept that some of the responsibility for the failures in the current system are rightly sheeted home to for-profit providers that take the easy ones to get into employment - work with those and ignore the more difficult cases? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, two things. I would say that I am concerned that there is varying quality in the system, so I am focused on how we lift quality. And sometimes that quality has been not prioritised because of profit. However, what I would also say is that it is the incentive system. If you have incentives that are designed and paid for by the Commonwealth that doesn't incentivise and pay for that deep work, you're not going to get that type of work. So, that is what we're remodelling. There's a lot of design work left to go, but we are very committed, because we think this is the best way to support what is a very diverse range of job seekers in the system. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    Now, just on mutual obligation. You're not getting rid of the system of mutual obligation which, obviously, a number of groups in this sector would like you to do, people like the Australian Council of Social Services who say that it is both punitive and doesn't really help, doesn't do anything to help people get into sustainable employment. Were you too afraid of the backlash to root out a Howard era welfare system? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Mutual obligations have been a feature in the system for a long time. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    They certainly have. And do you think they are a good thing? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Mutual obligations play a really important role and I think it is part of the social contract that, if you're receiving income support and you're able to work, you do take steps to find a job. What I think is being commented on and where I do agree is that there's no point in having pointless, meaningless mutual obligations - busy activity, no point in doing training in jobs that there are no jobs for in your local area. Because a lot of job seekers tell me that when they're engaged in something that is helping them towards a job and they can see that, they are really happy to engage. It's when they get told, apply for jobs that you don't have the qualifications for, that's really busy work that people do get frustrated and give up. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    I just want to ask you on compliance and penalties. Now, this is a system that I understand is on pause at the moment, found to be deeply flawed by a report from the Commonwealth Ombudsman. Will you overhaul it? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well firstly, we are already overhauling it to make it compliant and lawful. And part of overhauling it is making sure that there is discretion and human decision-making in the system. There will have to be compliance in the system. What that looks like and how it's applied, and when it's applied will look different in the different streams and will look different depending on whether you're engaging in the system or not. We want to incentivise activities and engagement that lead to a job, and that's where the difference lies. 

SARAH FERGUSON:    And just to finish, will you set targets at some point? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    We will certainly be doing modelling as we work through the detailed design work. With that detailed design work, we not only will have technical experts, today we've launched applications or expressions of interest for a lived experience panel to give that lived experience. We will be working through the detail and doing, obviously, very detailed modelling.