Interview with Sally Sara - ABC Radio National breakfast

SALLY SARA, HOST: Well, it's an understatement to say it's been a week of bad news for Australian workers. The receiver of the department store chain, David Jones, yesterday confirmed the closure of 19 stores across the country, with hundreds of jobs expected to go. Meanwhile on Tuesday, Qantas said it would shed 850 roles over the coming years as the company embraces offshore outsourcing and artificial intelligence. And just last week, Australian tech giant Canva announced a global restructure that will see more than a thousand staff depart. Amanda Rishworth is the federal Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, and joins me now, Minister. Good morning.

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Good morning. Great to be with you.

SALLY SARA: How concerned is the federal government by these job loss announcements?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, look, as Employment Minister, I'm concerned at any point there are job losses, and my thoughts are with those are affected. My message, though, to those companies, particularly in the case of whether it's Qantas or David Jones, is every effort must be put into ensuring that workers affected can be put into other roles within their company. We know, for example, Qantas does say that there are emerging roles within their business. Well, the obligation is on them to those that are affected by these decisions are actually invested in, retrained, and supported into other roles so that they can have continuing employment.

SALLY SARA: Do you agree with the RBA assessment that unemployment will rise over the next 12 months?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well look, obviously we have seen a slight uptick in unemployment. I would note that it is still low by historic standards, and we still have a lower unemployment than before COVID. And so- this is a challenging period with a lot of global factors, but there is still historic low unemployment in this country. But we need to ensure that we are doing everything we can to skill people and ensure that they can take jobs up into areas where there is demand.

SALLY SARA: Would unemployment remaining at around 5 per cent be a reasonable economic situation?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well look, as Employment Minister, I want to see unemployment as low as possible. I want to see the most amount of people get the experience of work, and my job is to ensure that people have the skills and the abilities to do that to get those job opportunities. There have been, since we've been elected, close to 1.3 million jobs added to the economy. We want to ensure people get the opportunity to take up those jobs.

SALLY SARA: The RBA has made it clear it is willing to see unemployment rise in order to get inflation down. Do you take responsibility for more people losing their jobs because of the government's inability to curb inflation?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: I don't accept that characterisation at all. I'm not going to comment on the Reserve Bank, but let's be really clear: there are a number of global factors that are impacting across the globe, including the war in the Middle East. When it comes to what government can do for inflation, we are taking responsible measures to take prudent budget management, but there are many other factors that impact this, and we will take responsibility and work towards that. At the same time, making sure …

SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] How much of a factor is public sector spending?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Let's be really clear. If we look at last year, we saw public demand growth halve, and public- and private demand increase. Of course, we've got to take responsibility and manage our budget in the most responsible way. But to deny the factors that are happening around the globe, including the war in the Middle East, doesn't take an accurate picture of what is actually happening out there across the world.

SALLY SARA: Does the government- when you're talking about the government taking responsibility, will that mean that the government is aiming for net savings in the mid-year economic review?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, you'll see the MYEFO when it comes out. But as both the Treasurer and the Prime Minister has indicated, we will take a responsible approach to budgeting. Of course, at the same time making sure that Australians get the services that they need. This is a responsibility of government. At the same time, when it comes to things like jobs, making sure Australians get the skills that they need to take up those jobs in areas where there is workforce shortage.

SALLY SARA: Is it the view of the government that achieving net savings would help to reduce inflation in Australia?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: I'm not commenting on the deliberations of MYEFO. 

SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] Is that a principle that guides the government?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: What I'm talking about is we will do our bit in a responsible way. But of course, as I mentioned, there are other factors. But we also will continue to deliver the services that people rely on. And when it comes to employment, I might add, make sure Australians are able to take up the opportunity to gain skills so that they can move into areas where there is workforce demand.

SALLY SARA: The government has released a draft best practice guide to help businesses adopt artificial intelligence. You say the guide makes it clear that AI works best when the workforce is at the centre of the adoption process. Does the government have any role to play in ensuring that workers are consulted when their employers adopt AI?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, what I've done with this best practice guide is bring together employers and workers and their unions to look at what is actually working with the adoption of AI, what can deliver productivity gains, and what's key to that is trust with the workforce, because it will be up to individual workers whether they embrace AI fully. And what we've said in this best practice guide, and we've used another- a number of examples where businesses have done this, is actually show that finding the pain points that workers have in their jobs and using AI to address it not only delivers businesses productivity gains but actually increases job satisfaction and ensures that workers feel like AI is actually working for them in their job. So, what this best practice guide is about is ensuring that we don't see AI as just a technology rollout, because there aren't going to be gains for businesses and workers if it's just seen as a technology rollout.

SALLY SARA: What would have these guidelines done for Qantas?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, firstly, let's point out that these guidelines talk about what does best practice look like, and there is not an obligation, but a benefit, I would say, in consulting with workers about how AI is to be adopted, what tasks could AI be used for, and then how do you actually get the benefit from that? This is about shared benefit and the importance of shared benefit, but we also talk about investing in the workforce. If AI does change someone's task, job, or role, how do you invest in that individual? Because they know the business, they have a lot of understanding and capability. How do you move them to ensure that they get a different role or an augmented role in the business that continues their employment and that they can actually enjoy?

SALLY SARA: Let's talk about housing. Figures from the ABS show the total number of new home loans fell 15 per cent, and their total value dropped 16 per cent from June to September. Have the government's policies failed first home buyers?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, firstly, I would say that there is a range of factors that affect the housing market, and we've seen these things in a cyclical nature in the past. For example, 2019, we saw house prices go down. When it comes to this …

SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] This is a record now, isn't it?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, when it comes to this data that we've got in front of us, what we've seen, if you drill down into it, is a concentration of that reduction being in investors buying existing houses. There's been a shift to investors investing in new housing, and that's a good thing because that does add to supply. We've also seen a shift towards more home ownership, and that is also a good thing on the balance of this. So the shifts here are important, and of course there are, as I said, a number of factors. But we want to see more home owners - first home buyers into their own home, and our policies are certainly geared towards that.

SALLY SARA: Geared towards that, but are they achieving that when you look at these numbers?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, we've seen thousands of Australians take advantage of our 5 per cent deposit scheme.

SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] But this is a record drop in home loan applications.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, let's be really clear. We've seen a record number of people being able to get into a home because they don't have to pay that mortgage insurance. We've also, of course, as I said, seen a shift in that balance in these numbers, where the shift has been towards home ownership. So that's a good thing. Of course, there's a range of factors that impact it across the board, but we're determined to support more Australians into owning their home.

SALLY SARA: Amanda Rishworth, we'll need to leave it there. Thank you for your time this morning.

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