Interview with Sally Sara - ABC Radio National breakfast
SALLY SARA, HOST: Well, turning to federal politics now, and after a six-week delay, the federal government has outlined its plan to reduce the number of people migrating to Australia. It's tightening visa rules for international students and backpackers while increasing efforts to remove people who remain in Australia after their visas expire. Announcing the changes at the National Press Club in Canberra yesterday, the Immigration Minister Tony Burke also addressed housing concerns.
[Excerpt]
TONY BURKE, MINISTER FOR IMMIGRATION: At the moment, immigration is not putting further pressure on housing, but what's happening at the moment is we need immigration to soften enough that housing has a chance to catch up.
[End of excerpt]
SALLY SARA: That's the Minister for Immigration, Tony Burke, speaking yesterday. Well, Amanda Rishworth is the Federal Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations and joins me in our Parliament House studio. Minister, welcome back to Breakfast.
AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Great to be with you.
SALLY SARA: How will the government enforce these changes?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, we have a number of rules or instruments that can give direction. And so some of the rules include, for example, stopping students from hopping from one course to another course. Another one of the changes is restricting partners coming out with those on student visas. So these are important and sensible changes about compliance, about integrity and ensuring that we have a sustainable migration system.
I need to point out migration plays a really important role, and one of the changes that the Minister announced yesterday was making sure that we can get those priority skill shortages in the area of healthcare, in the area of construction, here because we know that it does add to our economy. So we've balanced this in a way that supports our economy, but at the same time bringing integrity into the system along with compliance.
SALLY SARA: So if we're looking at enforcement here for those who overstay their visas, will there be an increase in resources and efforts to locate those people and deport them?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, we've been very clear, and we're sending a very, very clear message that you should not overstay your visa. There are clear rules around that, and people are removed from the country if they overstay their visa. We've been really, really clear that those that overstay their visa will have to leave, and the Minister has made that expectation clear and will continue to deliver on that.
SALLY SARA: There will be regulatory changes, not legislated, because you weren't able to get bipartisan support. Does that tie your hands a bit?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, it is disappointing that we've seen both the Liberal Party, the National Party and One Nation focused only on the politics of this and not on the policy. So- I mean, we saw this happen in the last parliament where we brought on legislation to bring integrity back into student visas. And after calling for it, the Liberal Party voted against it. I mean, that type of politics just really shows- lays bare, really, where the Liberal Party is. But we are determined through regulation to deliver this. Yes, it would be nice if we actually had a constructive discussion, but unfortunately, Angus Taylor is chasing One Nation and not actually thinking about what it would be to be an alternative prime minister.
SALLY SARA: Are you chasing One Nation?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: No, not at all. This is clearly about a sustainable migration scheme that has the integrity. We know that there was a very big peak after COVID in our NOM. And so, we’ve been steadily working on this to bring it back into sustainable levels. For example, we've seen a reduction in our international students as a result of making that sustainable. So we're very clear, but we're not going to smash the economy like One Nation and the Liberal Party are proposing to do.
SALLY SARA: Mr Burke said the government is on track to meet net overseas migration figures in the budget of 245,000 this year and 225,000 next financial year. The opposition leader, Angus Taylor, has criticised those numbers. Let's take a listen.
[Excerpt]
ANGUS TAYLOR, OPPOSITION LEADER: We know that right now, given the housing supply we are getting, the number needs to be capped at around 170,000. Well, they're well above that. We know we're over 290,000 right now. It's way beyond what we can cope with.
[End of excerpt]
SALLY SARA: That's the opposition leader, Angus Taylor. Why isn't the government trying to reduce immigration numbers more significantly than what Treasury has already forecast will happen anyway?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, let's be really clear. Angus Taylor has not even said what he's going to do or how he's going to do it. So this criticism really is- from Angus Taylor is more about politics than it is about policy. Of course, as I’ve said, our changes are about sustainable migration, but of course we're also building houses. But we need, in many instances, to ensure that we have the skills to build those houses. And that's part of what the Minister has done is in refocusing the priority areas in those skills that we actually need.
SALLY SARA: Do you expect that restrictions on backpackers will lead to higher wages for Australian workers?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, I don't expect that to be the outcome. What this …
SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] Have you modelled that?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I'm not really able to… but what we do want to see ...
SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] Has the government modelled that implication?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, we have an award system that shows what minimum wages and conditions look like. We have a strong safety net in this country. So look, I expect that- and I hope that we don't have agricultural farmers underpaying workers below that safety net …
SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] But we're actually talking about the opposite. That would mean increased costs for farmers if they have to up their wages because they can't find workers.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, there is a minimum safety net in this country. I would say a couple of things when it comes to finding workers to work in the agricultural sector. There are still, under our scheme, backpackers able to come. The changes, particularly in the second and the third year, are looking at a ballot system. And when it comes to the third year in particular, what we're saying is the third year backpackers must work in regional Australia. I'd also point to the PALM program. We have what is called the Pacific Labor Mobility program …
SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] That's not changing. Just to go back, have you modelled on what affect if will have on wages for jobs that were previously undertaken by backpackers?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: We always want to see decent wages for workers. But there is a safety net in this country, and if the suggestion is suggesting somehow that backpackers are getting paid under that safety net, then I would find that unacceptable.
SALLY SARA: So, but if workers if farmers and primary producers can't find workers, they need to increase wages beyond the safety net. Is that a good thing?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, we always want to see people getting paid decent amounts. That's why we have a strong safety net in the award system. But when it comes to worker shortages, what I'm saying about the PALM scheme is that, to some extent, is underutilised. And I'd encourage farmers that may be looking at how they fill their workforce shortages to look at the PALM scheme because the workers coming from the Pacific provide a huge resource, are very hard and dedicated workers. That currently is being underutilised and I would encourage people, and particularly those farmers, to explore that program to support them in their labour shortages.
SALLY SARA: More broadly, what modelling has been done on the impact of these changes on the economy and wages?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, in terms of what the impact on wages, what this is about is getting the right skills in this country. Making sure …
SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] But to go back to the question, has all this been modelled?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: I think what we're talking about are two separate issues. Firstly, looking at getting the right skill mix in this country means that we are a more productive country. So when the Minister is able to put priority onto our healthcare workers, onto our construction workers, into agricultural workers, which he’s been able to do, ensures that we have the right mix of workers.
SALLY SARA: That's the intention, but has modelling been done on what effect these regulations will have on the economy and wages?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: I'll leave that as a matter to Minister Burke.
SALLY SARA: [Interrupts] Do you know the answer?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: This is about skill shortages. This is about productivity. And when we have more productivity, workers' wages can go up. So, quite frankly, getting the right skills mix is really important for our country. This is what it's designed to do, as well as ensuring that there is compliance and integrity in the system.
SALLY SARA: So, just to clarify, as the Employment Minister, you’re not sure whether modelling has been done on these changes for wages?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: We have a strong safety net in this country, so if we're suggesting that migrant workers get underpaid, well I completely say that's unacceptable.
SALLY SARA: It's just a simple question about whether modelling has been done. So we know the implications of what might happen. As the Employment Minister, have you seen that?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, quite frankly, what is important here is getting the right skills mix. We need economic growth in this country. We need productivity. We need to be training our own people to make sure that we actually have the skills we need, training our young people, which we're investing in, as well as ensuring we have the right mix to add to our economic growth as part of our migration mix.
SALLY SARA: Just finally, on a separate issue, you're hosting an artificial intelligence employer roundtable in Canberra today involving companies like the Commonwealth Bank, Microsoft, Telstra, big companies. What will you be discussing in that forum?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: What we are working on is what does best practice look like when adopting AI in workplaces? What we know is the vast majority of jobs are going to be augmented rather than replaced when it comes to artificial intelligence in the short and medium time. That's a big change for workers, it's a big change for business. And if business and workers are going to have the confidence to embrace the benefits that come with AI, we need to look at what does best practice in that adoption mean. How do you ensure workers have the capability and skills to be able to adopt it? How does management roll that out with the transparency and the consultation with workers? So it's really important if we do this right, we need to understand what best practice looks like. We're working to develop best practice guidance, and this roundtable will feed into that.
SALLY SARA: Amanda Rishworth, Federal Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, thank you very much for coming in this morning.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Thank you.