Interview with Sally Sara - ABC Radio National breakfast
SALLY SARA, HOST: The Federal Government has unveiled what it's describing as a once-in-a-generation reform to the employment services system. The overhaul will place people seeking employment into three groups to receive different levels of support. Amanda Rishworth is the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations. I spoke to her in our Parliament House studio earlier. Amanda Rishworth, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.
AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Great to be with you.
SALLY SARA: Just before we get to employment services, the government's plans to reform capital gains tax are now subject to something of a full court press from opposition and some business groups, who say the changes should not apply to shares. Are they wrong?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, we've made a very important decision and reform is not always easy, but let's look at the principles of this. Not only are our reforms really critical to helping more young Australians be able to buy a home, but they're also about rebalancing the tax you pay from assets versus the tax you pay in your income. Economists have been asking, really, governments to rebalance this for some time to make it fairer and to ensure that workers do get some extra tax support, which we are doing in this budget with the $2800 on average a taxpayer will be better off. So this is about making sure there's fairness in the tax system and also supporting more Australians to get a roof over their head.
SALLY SARA: We have the legislation we're expecting this morning. In there, will we see any carve-outs?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: At the moment, we are putting in the first tranche of legislation. As the Treasurer has said, there is still consultation going on, and there will be further work to be done to look at what there are in terms of sensible arrangements. Tax policy is never finished, done in its first go. I think the GST, there were seven different tax bills to bring in the GST in one year. So this is an ongoing process, but we are working through it.
SALLY SARA: So what we see today may change?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, what we will see today is a really important piece of legislation to outline the framework. Of course, we're working through some of the details with business, as the Treasurer has said. But what the bill will have today is the important principles in there, the important legislation that brings effect to our changes.
SALLY SARA: So any carve-outs, will that be visible later in further legislation? Will it be in regulation? How will that happen?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, that's something that the Treasurer and the Prime Minister will work through. Of course, as we've said, getting this legislation in is a really fundamental principle of rebalancing the tax system to support workers. And the vast majority of people earn a wage, and these changes are not only about getting a roof over people's heads and into home ownership which is really, really important, but it's also about rebalancing the tax system so that workers get a fair go.
SALLY SARA: Are you expecting there'll be a drop in the housing market as this change takes effect?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Oh, look, I think there is the expectations by Treasury is that house prices will continue to rise over the longer term. But this is about ensuring that when a young person turns up to an auction, that they're not being outbid by someone that has tax breaks backed by the taxpayer.
SALLY SARA: Is it frustrating that two Labor state premiers in Chris Minns and Roger Cook have now made public criticism of the tax policy?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: That's entirely a matter for those premiers. What I would say is we work very closely with state and territories. For example, in this budget, and if we'd like to talk about the contribution we're making to state and territories in this budget, there's $25 billion for state hospitals, the largest hospital deal. So, look, we'll keep, of course, working with state and premiers, but the fundamental principles that drive us are critically important. And as I said, many economists have been calling for the rebalancing of the tax system and looking at what we can do to support first homebuyers into a home, and we're taking action here.
SALLY SARA: Let's go back to your portfolio. Changes for services in the system for unemployed Australians. There are more unemployed Australians who've been on employment services system for five years or more now than there were a decade ago. Why? What's happening?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: There's a couple of things happening. Firstly, of course, with a historically low unemployment rate, for those that still have those barriers to work, then the people on the caseload are often people that find it more difficult to get into work. But also, I think the system is failing them. I think they are not getting the right support to take steps into a job, and that's why we need to change the system. We need to make sure they're getting actual effective help in the support they receive, in their mutual obligation settings, to make sure that they are on a pathway for a job.
SALLY SARA: Yesterday we spoke to Christopher Rudge from the University of Sydney Law School. He raised the issue of private providers in the system and how they handle cases. Let's take a listen.
[Excerpt]
SALLY SARA: How will you ensure that commercial operators don't put people in the too basket with this so-called practice of creaming? Why not reclaim some of the service provision from commercial operators if it's not working?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, firstly, I would say that he's right about the incentives. And so what our new plan will do is actually have different incentives depending on the different streams of service you receive. When it comes to stream one, which is a digital online service, that will effectively predominantly be delivered by the Australian Public Service. But if we look at the very often very far away from the labour market participants, what we're going to be doing there is making sure that it's community organisations that have deep links into other organisations that have deep links into the community. Providers doing the service in this stream three will have to demonstrate these deep links and they will have to demonstrate being able to support appropriately a participant through that process, and the incentives will be different compared to stream two. So the incentive structure will be different. The organisations are more likely to be different in the different streams. And that's what I think will drive better outcomes for participants.
SALLY SARA: Earlier, I spoke with Jay Coonan from the Antipoverty Centre. Is the focus here with these changes to make the system better for participants or better for government? Jay is saying that if you want to make it better for participants, the number one thing you need to do is increase the level of benefits for people who are unemployed.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I'm talking about a system that is better for jobseekers. When I speak to jobseekers, the vast majority want the support to get a job. I've spoken with that many jobseekers who have been in the system and feel demoralised when they have to put in, for example, job applications to jobs that they're never going to get and they get rejected for. So, the changes to the system is not about government. It is about supporting people and providing the right level of intensity of service and support, depending on how far you are from the labour market.
SALLY SARA: Do you accept the argument that Jay has been putting forward that if benefits were higher, people would have a greater ability and capacity to help themselves?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, firstly, I would say that when it comes to payments, our government has increased JobSeeker, for example, over the last four years by 25 per cent. But what I would say is that when I speak to jobseekers, they want a high-quality service that has their back. I gave an example at the Press Club yesterday where that jobseeker, when they felt they were being coached and mentored and supported, given the right direction to get the right training for jobs that were available in his area, he succeeded. So I don't accept that service provision and the support of services is not relevant. I think it is entirely relevant and really important and when it works well, jobseekers feel like they've got someone supporting them, someone looking after them and helping them into a job.
SALLY SARA: A 2023 parliamentary inquiry recommended that the government establish an independent regulator for the sector. Did you consider creating that kind of watchdog as part of this overhaul?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: We don't envisage an independent authority, but what we do want to see is quality incentivised in the system, quality assessed in the system, not just at a point in time, but continuous quality improvement, and we'll be looking at how we actually incentivise that.
SALLY SARA: Amanda Rishworth thank you very much for joining me in the studio this morning.