Interview with Patricia Karvelas - ABC News Afternoon Briefing
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: To discuss all these issues and, of course, more, I want to bring in the Employment Minister, Amanda Rishworth. Amanda Rishworth, welcome.
AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Great to be with you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Annual wage growth was 3.4 per cent in the 12 months to June. This is a lift above inflation and also above the RBA's forecasts. But without an increase in productivity growth, the RBA Governor, Michele Bullock, has cautioned that the current levels of wages growth cannot be sustained without putting pressure on inflation. She's right, isn't she, that this won't be sustained unless you shift the dial on productivity?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, firstly, Patricia, I would say this is good news about the real wages growth that we've seen in this data. For too long, under the Coalition government, there was a deliberate design feature to put downward pressure on wages, and working Australians deserve a real wage increase. Of course, what we've seen is this is the seventh consecutive quarter of real wages increases. But I would also note it comes at the same time we're seeing a real reinvigoration of enterprise bargaining. Now, enterprise bargaining is where workers and unions sit down with employers to look at how they can make things work at an enterprise level. Now, that is also driving wage increases, but also drives productivity in the workplace because you can get the rules at work to work for that particular enterprise. So, as a Government, we acknowledge productivity is a challenge, but I am very heartened not just to see the real wages growth, but to see record numbers of employees covered by enterprise bargaining, meaning that employers are sitting down with unions and employees to negotiate wages and conditions that suit them.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Michele Bullock said real wages, though, are not rising by very much because that's the implication of slow productivity growth. Real wages, she says, can't grow as quickly. Do you agree with that?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: I would say that we do recognise that productivity is critical to rising living standards. That's been one of the key messages that the Treasurer has put out there and which is why we are having Productivity Roundtable to talk about how we look at productivity. But if we look at some of the things that are impacting, of course, wages, it was the deliberate design policy of the Coalition. And we have been very focused on changing the laws to reinvigorate enterprise bargaining for more cooperative workplaces to make sure that people have secure jobs so that they can go out and get a mortgage. These are some of the laws that we've passed, and we are now starting to see our commitment to get wages moving is starting to come to fruition.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: If you look at the wage growth that I've gone through today, public sector wage growth in the June quarter was one per cent. It's higher than the private sector. Is the public sector wage growth doing all the heavy lifting and that, obviously, is funded by taxpayers?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, let's be clear that both in the public and the private sector, in all states and territories, and across all industries, we saw real wage growth. And the numbers we saw, particularly because there are more private sector workers captured in the data, that private sector wages contributed to these wage growth numbers. So, we are seeing a broad-based increase in wages as a result of this data, not one particular industry, not just public sector. There was noted a slightly higher increase, and as the ABS pointed out, they think that is driven, in some part, to a temporary increase as a result of a couple of public sector back pay arrangements. What this wage data is showing is that there is real wages across public and private industries, across a range of industries and across all states and territories, and that's good news because it demonstrates real wage increases across the economy.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But you agree with the premise that without the productivity gains, that living standards won't increase, that you can't do it now without changing that equation?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, of course we want to see productivity improvement. That has been exactly why the Treasurer and the Prime Minister has identified this. But what I would say, Patricia, is you don't get productivity gains by paying people less. I need to be really clear about that.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: No, but you need- if you're going to pay them more, you also need to have a productivity dividend, right, because, I mean, the Reserve Governor's made it clear or it will have an inflationary impact.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, of course we're looking at productivity. That's exactly what we will be spending as a Government three days discussing. What sometimes we get into this debate, though, is say, if we only got rid of industrial relations laws, then somehow that would improve productivity. Well, that's not the case. Paying people less does not increase productivity. It just means that people have less take-home pay.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. The other big idea out today that I mentioned at the top of the show is the ACTU's proposal for a four-day working week. They say shorter working hours are good for both workers and employers. That's the way that they framed it. They argue they deliver improved productivity and allow working people to live happier, healthier, and more balanced lives. Do you agree with that?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, first, I would say that looking at how we have flexibility in workplaces has driven our position on work-from-home. It's driven our position on how we change the laws. In the Secure Jobs, Better Pay laws, we allowed for people to request flexible arrangements, including hours, including location, that allows you to request those for caring and family responsibilities. So we have changed the laws to allow for more flexibility. We, of course, backed in public servants to be able to work from home. So, it is about finding a better balance.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: [But how about this line, that people will live happier, healthier and more balanced lives if there's a four-day working week? Do you agree?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, what I'm saying is that what is key to the laws that we have passed is around flexibility. That's what we hear from people, is that being able to balance family and caring responsibilities with work responsibilities is key. And that's why we've backed in, for example, work from home. That's why we changed the laws. But obviously there is a lot of different workplaces out there. And enterprise bargaining is really critical. We know that in some places the four-day working week has been part of those negotiations.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So is your message, if you want a four-day working week, go and negotiate it in your EBA?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Enterprise bargaining is a very good place to negotiate terms and conditions. Unions can sit down with employers to work out what works for the workplace. As I said, our job and our mission with the legislation in the last parliament was to reinvigorate enterprise bargaining. We're now seeing a record number of employees now covered by enterprise bargaining.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: And do we know how many are now covered, you say you can negotiate for it, are able to have a four-day working week? How much that's going on in the economy as a result, as you say, of your revitalisation of enterprise bargaining?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, there's a range of flexibilities that have been negotiated in enterprise bargaining, whether it's rostered days off, whether it's compressed hours, whether it's four-day weeks, whether it's working from home. There are many different flexibilities that are being built into enterprise agreements. I don't have every single enterprise agreement in front of me, but we do know it’s happening and we do know that workplaces are working out what works for them.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let me put this to you. Tim Wilson spoke to me a little earlier, we're going to play the interview very soon. He's your shadow counterpart. He says he believes this is all very deliberate, part of a theatrical process where the ACTU, the Trade Union Movement, floats this idea so that you can shoot it down, and the Treasurer said that, you know, this is not the government's plan, so did the Prime Minister today, to look more moderate. Is that what's going on? He says that they're an important wing and that basically, there's conversations, and that's how this has come about, that you then shoot it down so you look more moderate.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look I'm not sure the thought process is going in the Shadow Minister's head. He's obviously in a much different world than I am in. The world I'm in is I engage across the board. I engage with businesses, I engage with unions to talk about a range of different ideas, and we work through what's possible. I am really pleased that I have convened a number of tripartite...
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So they didn't give you the heads up?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, this fantasy from Tim Wilson about some sort of strategic play about what's going to be called for and how it's going to operate is obviously something he engages in. I engage in respectful discussion with unions, with employers, to work out, with one goal in mind, how do we have workers getting good jobs, good pay and that businesses can flourish by offering those opportunities to people? That's what I'm focused on. And you'd be surprised, Patricia, more often than not, I find that both business organisations and unions agree on the same thing.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Of course, they often need their business and their workers to succeed. Just finally, on a very different issue, but it's no doubt you've noticed it, the Hamas co-founder Hassan Yousef has told the Nine newspapers the move by Australia and other Western nations to recognise Palestine was an important step towards achieving justice and that this is basically a win for them. Has your recognition of Palestine been viewed as a win by Hamas, does it worry you that Hamas is making that claim in Australian newspaper?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, Hamas is going to use whatever they can to promote propaganda. I mean, they are a terrorist organisation. What I would say is the work that the international community has done has been very, very clear that this move is about excluding Hamas from the process, about sidelining and excluding them from the process. To be very clear, the work that's been agreed to has that Hamas will not have a role in a future Palestinian state.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But doesn't it worry you that Hamas' co-founder has made this claim that he has welcomed the Australian government's move?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, it's not surprising a terrorist organisation would use whatever to promote propaganda. What our Government is doing is making sure we are working with the international community to sideline Hamas, to remove Hamas from the process, to make sure that the pathway to a Palestinian state is one where Hamas has no role.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, thanks for joining us.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Thank you.