Interview with Natalie Barr - Sunrise, Channel Seven

NATALIE BARR, HOST:    Anika Wells’ use of family reunion entitlements is ballooning this morning, with every politician now in the spotlight for their use of the perks. Australian taxpayers have spent more than $4 million paying for family reunion claims by all politicians since the Albanese government was elected. Some costs include travel for family members to and from events like musical festivals, sporting games and theatre showings.

Let's bring in Employment Minister Amanda Rishworth and Nationals Senate Leader Bridget McKenzie. Good morning to both of you. Amanda, our viewers are blowing up our phone. We've got a phone on the desk and this is what people's responses are. We actually haven't had a response like this for a long time. We know all politicians from across the aisle use this entitlement, but in any other workplace, this would not fly. Should you consider changing the rules here?

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS:    Well, first I would say that the rules have been set independently by IPEA There was some very big reforms, I think, back in the late 2014 or ‘15. The rules were changed. IPEA was set up as an independent authority. But, look, politicians do spend a long time away from their family. We all have a responsibility to use taxpayers' money sensibly and responsibly. But the family reunion support is there to reconnect families. But they are set by IPEA. That's who sets the rules. And there's limits in how you can use them.

NATALIE BARR:    Yeah, it doesn't sound like a lot of limits because Australians are looking at this and seeing Commonwealth cars waiting for 8, 12 hours, costing over $1000, and that's allowed in the rules. They're seeing three business class return airfares for every single MP per year for families. That's allowed in the rules. They're seeing trips that happen to coincide with personal birthdays, personal dinners, personal lunches, friends’ celebrations, kids sporting events. And that's all allowed in the rules, the rules that were set by an independent body over 10 years ago. Do you think they should be changed?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, look, they are set independently. I think it's better that they are set independently, that MPs aren't actually getting involved in all the minutiae discussion of this. It's important everyone abides by the rules, but it's also important we all are very conscious that the funding that we use is taxpayers' funding.

NATALIE BARR:    So do you think the rules should be changed? Now that you look in the cold, hard light of 2025, when people are saying, I can't buy meat at Coles this week, do you think the rules should now be changed?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    As I said, they are set independently.

NATALIE BARR:    Yes, we know that.

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    And I think it's right that they do get set independently.

NATALIE BARR:    They’re set independently, now, do you think they should be changed? Is there any argument for them to be changed?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    I think we should have them at arm's distance. I think that's very important. And I do think that we all have a responsibility to use taxpayers' money wisely.

NATALIE BARR:    Did you think it was a wise expenditure when a government minister spent $35,000 on a business class return airfare with two of her staffers spending the same, so added up to 100 grand?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Well, like I said, that Anika Wells has referred her spending to IPEA. Of course, it all appears that it is in the rules, but she's made sure that she has referred that to IPEA, the independent organisation, to have a good look at that. That is the right process to undertake.

NATALIE BARR:    Bridget, I'll just read Andrew from Schofield: why don't the politicians ban their travel entitlements like they've done with Facebook? Can you change the rules? What do you think, Bridget?

BRIDGET MCKENZIE, NATIONALS SENATOR:    Well, this is an independent agency and it should absolutely be arm's length from MPs. We shouldn't be setting our own rules when it comes to travelling entitlements. And as Amanda has said, these entitlements are there to keep families connected. Politics has changed a lot since I started. We now have many, particularly young women with young children, making sure they can stay connected over long periods away from home is important. But MPs have to be responsible not to abuse it. And as you said, Nat, this all started with a very arrogant minister charging the taxpayer $190,000 for a six-minute speech in New York. She's referred herself to the independent agency, but the opposition is asking Anika Wells to stand down, stand aside from her responsibilities as Communications Minister while this investigation is being undertaken, because we're trying to get these social media bans implemented. We need a minister that's focused on getting that right, not on going through her travel records.

NATALIE BARR:    Bridget, a lot of people work away from home and they'll be watching this morning and saying, I have to fly here and there all week and I only get to go home on the weekends or I have to fly away on the weekends. I don't get to fly my family business class to catch up with them and go to the ski fields on the weekend. That's why people think it's unfair, they're telling us. Bridget, do you think the rules should be changed?

BRIDGET MCKENZIE:    Well, Nat, I think when you quote the stories around the ski fields, that is, I would suggest, how the travel entitlement shouldn't be used. Most MPs, the vast majority of MPs who use this entitlement, use it to connect with their family here in Canberra whilst during sitting weeks and the like. And, you know, you'll have some MPs that don't use it at all because they live in Canberra.

NATALIE BARR:     Not many. Do we need to drop it from business to economy, at least?

BRIDGET MCKENZIE:    Well, these are all questions that, you know, the independent agency has the absolute authority to consider. So there's nothing stopping IPEA as an independent agency from considering changes. And it is right and proper that we are at arm's length of that process. That wasn't the case in the past. MPs and ministers were literally in charge of setting their own rules, which wasn't the right process. And that's why when we were in government, we set up an independent agency to look at this. Now, the minister's now being currently investigated by this agency. She needs to stand aside so that the government can focus on the social media ban, not on Anika Wells' travel issues.

NATALIE BARR:    Amanda, do you think most Australians support these rules?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Oh, look, I’m sure that Australians always want politicians to use money wisely. I think some of the complexities of being an MP are not always widely known by the wider Australian public. I have a lot of people that come to me say to me, when do you see your family? whether it's interstate or whether it's the local Christmas carols, I have a lot of people ask me, how do you do it? And of course, I've got a very supportive husband. I've got two young children. You know, it can be challenging at times, but it's also a massive privilege. So look, it is a different type of job. It's a job that is not like another job, but we all have a responsibility as public figures to use taxpayers' money wisely.

NATALIE BARR:    OK. Look, we thank you both for your time this morning. See you next week.