Interview with Andrew Clennell - Sky News, Politics Now

ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Joining me live is the Employment and Workplace Relations Minister, Amanda Rishworth. Thanks for your time Amanda Rishworth. Let me start with your reaction of this Federal Court decision against Qantas.

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Well look, I welcome this decision. There’s a very clear message that comes out, and that is that you need to abide by the law as a company in Australia. And what you can’t do is take adverse action against workers for them simply trying to allow for their workplace rights - so that’s very important. 

So, I welcome this decision. I do note Qantas’ apology and the terribly big impact this had on those workers and this now, I think, closes what was a pretty sad chapter.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Vanessa Hudson, the Qantas CEO, copped it from the judge for not appearing. And Alan Joyce copped it as well for the way he handled the sacking of the workers. What do you think of the actions of those two individuals?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well look, I think what's really important here is that Qantas does - and other companies around Australia - understand the laws in this country, that workers do have rights in this country and they can't take action that tries to undermine those rights, I think that's really critical. And the actions companies take, particularly when it comes to their workers, does have real life impacts. 

And so I think it's really important. I hope that all companies are looking at this decision and make sure that they do abide by our workplace laws, which is critically important and there to support both workers and employers.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Let's move now to the Economic Roundtable. There's criticism around the Government in terms of the Jobs and Skills Summit at the start of your last term, which has been called a stitch-up and resulted in a bunch of union demands being adopted. How can we guarantee that won't happen this time, Amanda Rishworth?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I think that both the Treasurer and the Prime Minister have been very clear that there is a roundtable that will take place over three days to build momentum – to build momentum about what's next, to see if we can build a consensus about how we tackle productivity in this country. 

I think, and I've been reflecting on the Jobs and Skills Summit, and that had some really important outcomes a range of different areas including to investment in skills as just one example. So, I am not cynical about this. I think that this provides a huge opportunity for people to come together to build consensus, to see if we can land on what the next steps are to really tackle productivity in this country.

ANDREW CLENNELL: But it was a skills summit that didn't solve the housing crisis, wasn't it? I mean, if you're having a proper skills summit, perhaps it could have done more in that direction. Perhaps shows why these talk fests don't deliver.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well look, Andrew, you can't make up for decade of neglect that happened under the previous government when it comes to skills shortages in this country.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Well, you've had three and a half years, Amanda Rishworth. You've had three and a half years now, Amanda Rishworth.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I would say that there has been a lot of investment in skills. I have been going out speaking with students that are getting free TAFE as just one example, looking at how they might develop a career in construction, in plumbing, in becoming an electrician. And the pathways that have been opened up as a result of our Government's investment in free TAFE, as just one example, have been profound. 

They are revitalising our TAFEs in rural and regional areas. So look, obviously building on things like our free TAFE are critically important, our investment in our people. But they're not things that can be solved overnight. This is about, as the Treasurer has said, over the next three years and, indeed, the decade beyond.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Is it the PM's idea or the Treasurer's idea? Do you happen to know?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, I would say whoever’s it was it was a very good idea, Andrew, and I give credit to both the Prime Minister and the Treasurer. To be actually trying to build consensus to talk about what comes next we've got a very good agenda already in place, a very strong agenda about building Australia's future. 

But we're not scared of other ideas and what people might put on the table.

ANDREW CLENNELL: But Amanda Rishworth, Minister, I think one thing you are scared of, or the complaint of business, you're scared at looking at IR reform that might favour employers. That's their complaint. 

How can you have productivity improvement without addressing some of the generous industrial relations laws for workers in this country?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I'm going to be really clear, Andrew. Our Government, and myself as Minister, doesn't believe you get productivity gains by making people earn less and work harder. That's not what productivity is having people earn less, to cut their wages, to cut their conditions - that doesn't lead to productivity gains. This has got to be a serious conversation.

ANDREW CLENNELL: You don’t get productivity - I understand what you say about earning less, but you're saying you don't get productivity from people working harder? Surely, people working harder directly creates productivity.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, when we look at how you deliver productivity, it is about working smarter. Let's be really clear about that. It is about how do we get circumstances which enable. For example, there's a conversation being opened up about artificial intelligence and how that augments people's roles to making sure we're actually working smarter. 

But to say people should just earn less and that's the answer to our productivity, then that is an old debate that the Liberal Party loves to have but it's not the debate we want to have. We want to see people earning more.

ANDREW CLENNELL: What do you make of the ACTU idea for a four-day working week?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: People will put ideas on the table. What I've been focused on is how we deliver productivity through ensuring there's flexibility in our workplaces. I mean, flexibility in our workplaces will deliver productivity gains. Of course, how that looks has to be done at an enterprise level and of course what works for employees and businesses. 

But we've heard, for example, through the HR Institute that the Right to Disconnect is leading to a more engaged workplace. That's the HR Institute of Australia, not the Government, saying that our laws are working. So we want to see flexibility. 

We know that working from home, for example, does enable workers to continue to contribute to their workplaces. So flexibility is really key, and how do we do that best is getting employers working with their workers and their unions to deliver that.

ANDREW CLENNELL: On artificial intelligence, business is concerned that the Government might legislate so that can be put into enterprise agreements, guarantees it won't be used or giving workers some of the profits of it being used. Is any of that on the government agenda?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, let's be really clear. Enterprise agreements are a good thing. Enterprise agreements are where employers and employees and their representatives, being their unions often, will sit down and negotiate terms and conditions that work for the workplace. Now, of course, they're always assessed by the Better Off Overall Test, but ultimately, it is a position for unions and employees to sit down with employers about what works for the workplace. 

So it's not about government imposing things in enterprise agreements. Ultimately, it's about workers and employers sitting down and negotiating. So that is a matter for them. In terms of regulation around artificial intelligence, of course, artificial intelligence provides a huge opportunity, I think, for Australia right across the board in terms of, as I said, augmenting workers' jobs and allowing for a really productivity uplift. 

Of course, what the government said is there's a range of different laws in place that look at artificial intelligence, whether they be privacy laws or copyright laws, and we'll continue to very carefully monitor to make sure those laws are fit-for-purpose when it comes to artificial intelligence.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Do you think AI will be in enterprise agreements? There'll be ability to do it or not?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Using AI in the workplace is happening now. I think what's really important is that both workers and customers and employers have the trust and confidence in how artificial intelligence is being deployed. I imagine that there are workplaces around Australia having conversations where employers are talking with their workers about how artificial intelligence might support their work. 

Of course, as I said, really for enterprise agreements, it's a matter for employers and employees to sit down and negotiate those terms and conditions and what fits those workplaces, and I think that's a good thing and we want to see more of it.

ANDREW CLENNELL: You were briefly NDIS Minister. Are you glad to be out of that job with the challenges in reining in that spending that are on the books at the moment? And do you concede that program is out of control?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: The first point I would make is that the NDIS is making life-changing investments in people's lives. It's providing supports that so many people actually need. And as a Government, whether it was under Minister Shorten, myself, or now under Minister Butler, we want to make sure that the NDIS is doing what it was intended to do and make sure it is providing those life-changing supports. 

Of course, sustainability of the NDIS is absolutely key, and that work had begun as soon as we came to Government. I might note that the now Opposition, the previous government under the Liberals, squibbed that type of reform that's necessary, but we will do it and consider it. But we can't move away from the fact that the NDIS does provide life-changing supports and is an incredibly important social program.

ANDREW CLENNELL: And the PM and Treasurer have indicated over the last couple of days they are open to reining in this scheme more. That sounds like something the government intends from what you're saying as well.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: We want to see a sustainable scheme. We've already for example made many changes. We passed legislation under the previous term of Government. We have also made sure that we have been investing in the agency to tackle fraud. These are all ongoing reforms that we made in our first term, and like I said, these reforms were squibbed by the previous government. 

They had no intention of actually making this really important scheme, not only sustainable, but very much person-focused, making those life-changing investments that it should and needs to do.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Just finally, Minister, as Employment Minister, how long do you think Australia will have an unemployment rate with a four in front of it? Do you think that could last even the entire term of government, or do we have to accept it will head back up into the fives, perhaps the six?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I don't want to make predictions, but what I would say is what our government's focused on. And our Government has been absolutely focused on jobs, on the creation of jobs. And you've seen very reassuring numbers, with 25,000 jobs added to the economy. This is a very good outcome. 

At the same time, we're seeing real wage growth, and that is also a good thing. Seven consecutive quarters, that is a good outcome. This is, at the same time, we are seeing inflation, of course, back in the band and interest rates coming down. So we are absolutely focused on making sure that people have job opportunities, they can get into jobs, they have the skills they need to take up jobs that may come down the line. 

This is what our Government's absolutely focused on, and we'll keep focusing on that every single day. I know I'm focused on it, and I know the whole Government is focused on it.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Employment and Workplace Relations Minister Amanda Rishworth, thanks so much for your time.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Thank you.