Doorstop - Parliament House, Canberra
AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: It’s great to be here with, of course, Sally McManus from the ACTU, Michael Kaine from the TWU, but most importantly our workers. We’ve got Nabin, Utsav, and Viral. They are workers that have been part of a fight to get minimum standards for last-mile food delivery drivers. These are the drivers, the gig workers, that deliver your food when you get onto the apps. And for too long, they were not getting paid decent wages in this country. For too long, they have not been getting minimum standards, which many other employees in this country enjoy. They have been fighting for a long time.
Now, in the last term of parliament, we put in laws to encourage these workers, their union and businesses to sit down and actually discuss what minimum standards could look like. And I am so pleased today to be with these workers and their union that have been able to say that they have come to agreement with Uber and DoorDash on what these minimum standards will look like. They have come to agreement.
Now, of course, the final part of this is to lodge this in the Commission and to sign this off. But what's really clear here is that our laws that we put in place very much encouraged both companies, and those that work for those companies, to sit down and to have a discussion about how to have some minimum standards in this country. Minimum standards are so important because they provide enough money for people to actually get by and of course provide a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. And the work that has been done by these workers and the TWU, supported by the ACTU, is so, so important.
So, I’d just like to say a big congratulations to everyone. This is what it looks like when there are cooperative workplaces where workers and companies and their unions sit down to discuss what is really important. And so I'm really pleased that our government put in the laws, but it’s actually been the hard work of the people behind me that has got to this stage. Of course, as I said, there's a final stage for it to be signed off at the Fair Work Commission but to get to this stage is a real testament to everyone here.
So I'm going to hand over to Sally McManus now to hear from her, and then Michael and then the workers.
SALLY MCMANUS, SECRETARY OF THE ACTU: G’day. Well, Aussie unions have pulled off a world first. This is the first time in the world that gig riders, delivery riders, have got minimum conditions and are now treated and respected as they should be. And Australian unions were never going to leave behind these workers. We knew when they started joining their union, the TWU, the poverty wages they were on and how much they were being pushed to complete orders. Unfortunately, throughout this eight-year fight, we've seen some workers be killed because they were pushed so hard by the algorithm to deliver orders quickly in our big cities and forced to drive in dangerous conditions. And it's in their memory too that these laws are here.
And it was these workers that got together in their union, the TWU, who never gives up, and we fought and fought and fought. We would never accept the fact that some workers in our country had less rights than workers did 100 years ago, and we worked with the Labor Government to get new laws in place that gave them the legal minimums. But new laws are one thing. Putting them in action is another thing. And that's due to the work of the TWU and the members who have negotiated with these huge multinationals, Uber Eats and DoorDash, to put in place minimum standards which are going to lead, quite frankly, to very significant pay increases for these workers as well as protection in terms of insurance for them and to make sure that they have basic rights, that other workers have, to be properly consulted about how their work happens.
This comes on top of protections for gig workers for being unfairly deactivated, also bringing them in line with other workers who have basic protections from being unfairly dismissed as well. So, this is a huge day for Australia actually. We should be proud that we're the first in the world to deliver fairness for these workers, and really this is their day. And I'll hand over to Michael Kaine.
MICHAEL KAINE, NATIONAL SECRETARY OF TWU: Thanks very much, Sally and Minister. Well, it is a great day. It is a really great day. For too long, gig workers have been the silent heroes of our economy. They've literally put their bodies on the line. We've lost 18 of them in the last few years simply doing their work. Who can forget that they were the heroes of the pandemic? They were delivering to us when we were in lockdown, long before there was any sign of a vaccine. Talk about putting your body on the line. And of course we've become so accustomed to pressing that button, and as if by magic there's a knock at the door with our food. That is an amazing thing for us to be able to do in our economy. But for so long, these workers have suffered under horrendous job insecurity. And today, for the first time, they can imagine a future where they have some dignity, where they have not just rights which have been embedded now for the last year or so, but rights that are kicking into place, following hot on the heels of not able to be sacked by an algorithm without recourse. They came into place in March. We now have a situation where these workers are going to get a significant uplift in their pay and a significant uplift in the consistency of their pay, and that's critical.
These workers here and their colleagues met yesterday in a group and completely endorsed this joint position that is now before the Fair Work Commission for the Fair Work Commission's consideration. It's the result of a fight that these workers here have undertaken for years. They started this fight back in 2017 and it was an uphill battle. And the result of that fight is, before the Fair Work Commission now is a set of provisions as a proposal that will move the dial. It is a world first set of conditions for gig workers performing this work, and it will result in life-transforming wage increases. Until this point in time and even as we speak today, there are swathes of workers in the gig economy that are being paid below the minimum national wage. That is unacceptable.
If the Fair Work Commission endorses this process, from 1 July, these workers won't just move to the minimum wage. These workers will move to the minimum wage plus 25 per cent for each and every hour that they work. That is significant. From that time, they will be assured that there will be some protection if they get injured. Digital labour platforms will have to keep insurance policies to ensure that workers are taken care of if they're injured.
And for the first time, we understand in the world, these workers will be able to have access to their records, how long they've worked, who they've worked for, but also get details before they accept a job about how much they're going to be paid, where they're going to be working, who they're going to be working for. It sounds remarkable that we haven't been in that situation until now, but it is remarkable that we're in this situation now. So it's the fight of these workers that's been the key.
But I have to say this. There's been a constructive approach, particularly over the last number of months, from the major platforms as well. Uber Eats and DoorDash have engaged with the union constructively and in good faith to reach this position. That is a testament to the system that the Albanese Government put in place. That is a system that requires these applications to first go to the Road Transport Advisory Group, a formal consultative body under the new system, and compel parties to talk to each other about how best it would be to get standards in place. If there is an impasse that needs to be broken, the Fair Work Commission sits ready to act. Well, the Fair Work Commission may have views on this and may decide that there needs to be changes to this proposal.
But we have jointly, the TWU on behalf of these workers, DoorDash and Uber Eats, the biggest players in the food delivery sector, have jointly put a proposal by consent to the Fair Work Commission last night to transform the lives of these workers. So it is a significant moment in time. It is a world first. It is such a reward for these workers who have fought since 2017 to change their lives. It is a moment where these workers can now imagine a future where they have some dignity, where they have rights, where they’re able to plan for themselves and their families for a better future. And who better to tell you about it than them? I’ll hand over to Utsav first, and then Nabin.
UTSAV BHATTARAI, FOOD DELIVERY WORKER: Thanks, Michael. Thanks everybody for allowing me this opportunity to speak on behalf of the workers. My name is Utsav. I am a food delivery worker at Canberra. I’ve been a food delivery worker for about five years, and I‘ve been engaged with the Transport Workers’ Union ever since. As Sally said, workers were living under the condition of more than a hundred years ago. Experiencing that is really intense. This moment is really emotional for me. The conditions of a hundred years ago – without any super. You're sick, you’ve got to go to work. There's a hail storm, there's rain, you’ve got to go to work. You can't stop. You've worked 60 hours? Just keep going. You don't have enough to pay your bills. Your legs are shaking? Just keep going. Just one more order, one more hour, just need to keep going – that's the condition that these drivers were living under.
The change that we're seeing now, it's massive. You'd call me crazy. People would call me crazy when we say we have to pass laws, we have to apply for minimum standards, and then we have to negotiate, and then we might get a minimum standard. How crazy do you have to be to think that? The drivers that are alongside me, they were crazy enough. The TWU members were crazy enough to take that fight, and they've passed laws. They’ve been involved with the negotiations. They've done intense negotiations with the companies, and we're this close now to actually getting a minimum standard. And when I say this, I am proud. But I'm not proud as well, because we're not talking about decent pay, we're talking about minimum wage. Let that sink in, everybody – it's a minimum wage that we've been fighting for over the last seven years, minimum conditions. This win is for every worker who can now take sick leave, who can now work 40 or 50 hours and stay home, spend some time with their families. It's for every family who can say that their families will return home safely. This is a win for everybody.
Before I close, I just want to say I used to make a lot of videos for advocating for drivers, and the comments that I used to get was, if you don't like the job, just change the job. Well, we didn't. And that's why we're standing here. We stood our ground. We thought what was impossible, we did that. And drivers are standing here. So congratulations to every food delivery worker. If you're not a member with the Transport Workers' Union, join now. Thank you, everybody.
NABIN ADHIKARI, FOOD DELIVERY WORKER: Good morning, everyone. So, pretty exciting day. So starting with my introduction, I'm Nabin Adhikari, a food delivery driver based in Canberra, delivering since 2018. I initially started from Sydney – so basically, all the traffic and all those things and risk-taking goes into place. Then back in Canberra during COVID. As Michael said, during COVID we were in the front line of the pandemic. I was delivering food to COVID-positive patients as well. I mean, there was nothing. We're putting ourselves on the line. And now, when we are looking from that day to now, things have changed. Things are going to change. And as Utsav said, we started the fight for the minimum standards.
Imagine a workplace where you don't have a minimum standard, where you're living in that situation since the gig economy entering Australia. And now, finally we are having minimum standards. And on top of that, we are having consultation – something we always wanted. Always wanted to speak with someone when there is a sudden change from the algorithm or the platform makes a change, and now we're getting that chance. How powerful is that? How powerful for a worker – when they are making a change just for the sake of the money, now they have to consult with the worker. Finally, workers will be having a voice. I think that is the most powerful thing than the pay, than the insurance. I think from looking almost a hundred years back, we started having minimum wage for almost all industries in Australia, right? And after that, it took more than one century and almost a decade after having a gig economy that we have started fighting for the minimum wage for the gig worker in the 21st century. That's a different journey. That's how the journey of the modernised workforce has been.
And finally, a stepping stone, a milestone for food delivery drivers where they are getting a minimum standard, a minimum wage, something that they always deserved. Either it was a pandemic or either it was a storm, or even right now in Queensland there are some food delivery drivers still driving there, delivering food while people are staying at home. So congratulations to everyone, and it’s not only a win for food delivery drivers, it’s a win for every Australian, because now when you’re ordering food, the driver who brings food to your door will be getting paid decently, getting paid what he or she deserves. Thank you.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well done. Okay, questions?
JOURNALIST: Minister, this deal covers Uber Eats and DoorDash. Do you have an expectation that other platforms will eventually agree to similar standards?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I'll get Michael to add to it, but what I would say is this is a really important first step. What our laws did was make sure that the parties, whether that's DoorDash, Uber Eats and the union, the workers, could sit down and discuss what those minimum standards would look like. Certainly from my perspective, I hope that we see more of these arrangements when it comes to the gig economy. It is a way where people are working together, and that's what our laws to do. And I would like to acknowledge not only the TWU and the workers, but also DoorDash and Uber Eats for sitting down and negotiating what these minimum standards look like.
But certainly this is world-leading, and I wanted to reinforce that point. The legislation that we put in place, and indeed the outcome that has been negotiated between the TWU, DoorDash and Uber Eats, is world-leading. There are other countries looking at the laws that we have put in place and the process, importantly, we've put in place. So, look, this is the first of what I hope will be a number. I don't know if Michael wanted to add something to that about where he's at?
MICHAEL KAINE: Thanks, Minister. Yes, this is a joint proposal that's been put before the Fair Work Commission by the Transport Workers' Union, Uber Eats and DoorDash. There are other food delivery companies in the country, apps like Hungry Panda and Easy. The proposal is, though, that the Fair Work Commission would set a minimum standards order for all food delivery companies based on the agreement that's been reached between the three parties.
JOURNALIST: Minister Rishworth, under the unfair deactivation laws, there's been a number of cases in which Uber drivers who have had sexual misconduct with passengers, including non-consensual kissing and masturbating while the passenger was in the car, have won their jobs back after being deactivated. Do you think the settings under the unfair deactivation laws at the moment are appropriate?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I just want to be really clear that under the deactivation code, there is a separate provision for serious misconduct. And every rider deserves to be safe. Of course, also what the deactivation code was all about is ensuring that an algorithm couldn't exclude drivers. So look, there is a serious misconduct provision. We would encourage, of course, to follow that provision in the necessary circumstances, as well as a code of deactivation. Of course, that is what is in place. and that serious misconduct provision was put in for serious circumstances to keep the public safe.
JOURNALIST: In that case, do you think the Fair Work Commission is using that serious misconduct provision appropriately if these people are being reinstated and are getting pay?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I don't want to prejudge what the independent Fair Work Commission has made. And I, of course, am not in the Fair Work Commission. But as I said, the serious misconduct provision in the deactivation code was absolutely put in there to keep the public safe. Equally, the code of deactivation was also about ensuring what we had heard, that too many drivers were being deactivated based on an algorithm. And I have to say, there's been many cases that have been settled very constructively in a dialogue between the platform and the driver. But as I said, the serious misconduct provision was put in there for cases of serious misconduct.
JOURNALIST: Have you personally reviewed any of these cases? And are you considering tightening the serious misconduct [inaudible]?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, we have got a review of our broad legislation. It's a statutory review of our legislation. We will go through the normal review processes. But as I said, there is this serious misconduct provision that was put in place for scenarios of serious misconduct, and that was put in place.
JOURNALIST: On this deal that’s been struck or is about to be approved by the Fair Work Commission, the platforms have previously warned of price rises. I think it's quite significant price rises. They've now walked that back, saying if there is any price rise, it's going to be very modest. What does that say that the platforms are now playing down the risks of consumers having to pay more out of this?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, look, what I would say is, in terms of price rises, I'll leave that for the platforms. But I would say that I'm going to go back to a pretty simple principle that you heard these workers talk about. And that is that they had fallen through the cracks of a well-defined principle in this country. And that is we have minimum standards, including minimum rates of pay, to ensure that we don't have sort of sub-slavery conditions in this country. And so there are workers that had fallen through the cracks, and we took action to fix that law, and the agreement that's been struck between the TWU and the platforms is a really profound one, and it will of course go to the Fair Work Commission. But what I would say is it is a very, very simple concept that you heard these workers talk about, that there should be minimum conditions and minimum standards, minimum rates of pay that apply across workers in this country, and that's what this has been all about.
JOURNALIST: Just a question for Sally, if that’s all right?
SALLY MCMANUS: Yeah.
JOURNALIST: There's growing concern among workers across a whole range of unions when it comes to AI and the rollout in a whole range of industries. What's your message to both workers and policy makers when it comes to making sure AI is utilised but also in a way that can protect workers?
SALLY MCMANUS: Well, AI can either be a really positive thing or it can be a really negative thing, and it depends how it's implemented and it depends on who's making the decisions. And we would say that workers need to be at the centre of that decision making. For example, if a company decides they want to introduce AI and it's going to lead to job losses, it's going to lead to people needing to upskill, that they need to be talking to their workers and coming to agreements with them around those particular issues, because if they don't, no one's going to trust it. Workers aren't going to adopt it. They're going to be worried about losing their jobs. They are not going to be enthusiastic about all the claims that it's going to make things better if it's not actually demonstrated to them. And so we're in discussions with employers on this matter and with the government on this matter. I think it's fair to say that the jury is, from the union movement's perspective, out on this issue. We can see AI being introduced in ways that are positive, for example, in medical settings that are helping people do their jobs and obviously delivering better outcomes for patients. But in other areas, we can see employers investing a lot into AI systems, and we are concerned that they're going to want to see a return on that and that you can't just assume it's going to magically lead to a sharing of the productivity gains or it's going magically create better jobs and higher pay. And so we've got clear principles about this, and we'll be ready to be calling out behaviour that in any way undermines the rights of workers. The government believes, like we believe, that workers need to be consulted and need to be at the centre of this. And I would say it's in businesses' interests that they do that as well.
JOURNALIST: Minister, can I just get you back?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Sure.
JOURNALIST: Do you agree with your colleague, Mike Freelander, that support for a gambling ad ban in Labor is so widespread that it would pass parliament if the vote was held?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: The action our government has taken on online gambling is very significant. In the last term, we did a range of things to reduce gambling harm, and that's what we all want to see. We banned the use of credit cards, because you shouldn't be gambling with money you don't have. We brought in evidence-based taglines. We introduced BetStop, including a lifetime ban for online betting of self-exclusion. We also, of course, introduced activity statements, which allows people to understand what their losses might be. So our government has taken significant reform when it comes to this area – the most amount of reform any government has taken in a long time.
In terms of what’s next, of course, the Minister and the government will continue to work on that, but I don't accept that we haven't taken significant reform when it comes to online gambling harm.
JOURNALIST: Minister, on that note, when you go home and you turn on the TV or you watch a YouTube video and you get pounded with betting ads, do you feel that the government has done enough in that moment?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: What I would say, firstly, is no one likes advertising and no one likes to see gambling advertising, or quite frankly, a lot of advertising. But what I would say, in terms of what I'm focused on and what the government focuses on, how do you reduce gambling harm. And as I have outlined, for example, there was talk about banning credit cards for use in online gambling for a long time. Under the Coalition, they talked a lot about it. We did it. Introducing activity statements, letting people understand their wins and losses. A lot of talk about it, we did it. When it comes to BetStop, a lot of discussion. We want to see these effective measures in place. Of course, the Minister will continue to work on this, as will the government, but our government has taken significant action.
JOURNALIST: Minister, every advocate has said that this isn't enough. They look through some of the recommendations in the Murphy Report – while some have been touched upon, they look at some really simple ones, having a gambling minister oversee all of the recommendations rather than three to four departments, stuff like that. So you keep referring to BetStop and credit cards, but a lot of those have holes in them. People at BetStop are getting messaged. People can go overseas with credit cards with little to no blocks. So is all of that really enough? Are you not listening to advocates two and a half years later?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, what I would say is, of course, we're always looking at what we can do. But I would like to point out that the significant reform we've already taken was talked about for a long time, and our government has actually delivered. Of course, we will consider and keep engaging, as I know the Minister has, with gambling advocates right across the board, but I'm responding to the action we have taken, which has been significant. Great, excellent, thank you.