Australian Politics podcast with Josh Butler

E&OE TRANSCRIPT

JOSH BUTLER, HOST: Hi. I'm Josh Butler, Political Reporter and Chief of Staff at Guardian Australia on the lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people in Canberra. I'm filling in for Tom McIlroy this week while he's travelling with the Prime Minister.

My guest today is Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations Amanda Rishworth. I speak with the South Australian MP about the Government's agenda for industrial relations, potential reforms, and the complaints about the mutual obligation system and job services.

[Excerpt]

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: I heard one example of an older woman who had been in the labour market for a very long time, quite a high-level job. Took some time out to care for her mum. Thought it'd be easy to get back in and it just wasn't. So we need to make sure that we're meeting and supporting people where they're at.

[End of excerpt]

JOSH BUTLER: We also discuss what the Government thinks about the impact of AI on the future of work.

[Excerpt]

AMANDA RISHWORTH: It makes commercial sense. If you want to get the job right and if you want to have the best adoption of AI, consult with the people doing the job.

[End of excerpt]

JOSH BUTLER: This interview was recorded following Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's address to the United Nations General Assembly, where he recognised Palestinian statehood. This is the Australian Politics Podcast.

Amanda Rishworth, Minister, thank you for joining us on the podcast.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, great to be with you.

JOSH BUTLER: You've got a big portfolio and I want to dig into some specific things shortly. But to go to some news matters today, we're recording this shortly after Anthony Albanese the PM said Australia will recognise the Palestinian state at the United Nations. It has been met with some criticism from Israel, from the United States, from the Coalition Opposition. Why is this the right move for Australia at this time?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, look, at this time, we're joining many other nations to recognise the state of Palestine really to add to the international momentum to break the cycle of violence. We need a two-state solution and, quite frankly, there's no better time at this point now to add to the momentum and be part of that solution. So look, it is the right time. We join with many other nations. And we hope that this will continue to build international momentum for that two-state solution.

JOSH BUTLER: As you say, I think it's over 150 countries out of 190 UN member states that recognise Palestine already. Is it simply just time or even overdue that we've done this?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well look, I think what's really clear is that the status quo is not working. We've got to have a ceasefire. We've got to end this cycle of violence. Too many people, innocent people, are suffering and so we need to do something different. And this recognition of the state of Palestine and, of course, the commitment that's been given by the Palestinian Authority about no future role for Hamas is a really important one. I would like to acknowledge that that was a commitment given and we've responded to that commitment. So I think, importantly, it is about adding to the international momentum for something to change.

JOSH BUTLER: Are you disappointed the Coalition has taken a wildly different tack on this, I guess, breaking with bipartisan sort of foreign policy position here, contacting both American Congress people and speaking to Israel's Government to say that the Liberals don't support the Government on this matter?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, I think it is disappointing that Australia is not speaking with one voice. I think that we get better outcomes when Australia speaks with one voice. Am I surprised? Well look, no, because I do think Sussan Ley is having to shore up her leadership here in Australia. I actually think, unfortunately, that's what it's about rather than the national interest. But we can have the debate within the country. Of course, you can be an effective Opposition - we need an effective Opposition, but I think that this is not great for our national interests. We need to speak with one voice.

JOSH BUTLER: So to your portfolio matters, Amanda Rishworth, you're the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations. There's obviously been a lot happening in that space since the Labor Government came to office a couple of years ago. What's next in the reform conversation here for you a minister and the Government in the IR workplace employment sphere?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I think there's a number of really important elements that we are bedding down in terms of our previous workplace reforms. And of course, things like how do we create more cooperative workplaces; how do we reinvigorate bargaining, was a really key area that we were wanting to see happening. Because enterprise bargaining is good for employers and employees, it delivers higher wage increases. So, partly, it is about bedding down some of the reforms but, equally, we're also delivering on a number of election commitments. We recently passed legislation to protect penalty rates in our safety net system in this country. The right place to negotiate workplace-specific arrangements is in enterprise bargaining, not actually by whittling down the safety net, so that legislation is now passed.

But we also have another important piece of legislation that I'll be introducing into the Parliament, which is about ensuring that employers cannot cancel their parental leave in the event of a stillbirth or early death of a baby. We’ve been presented with some really very heart-wrenching examples where, because it was a grey area, employers decided to cancel the paid parental leave that's offered by them as employers. And that really is earth-shattering in the event of stillbirth or early death. Now, it's not a really common occurrence, but for those people that it happens to it is profound. So that's another piece of legislation that I look forward to introducing into the Parliament. But really, it continues to look at how we get more cooperative workplaces where we've got employers and unions working together.

JOSH BUTLER: Those are some really important points that you mentioned, but one of the points you talked about was invigorating workplace bargaining. I understand your department has some new figures about the Government's recent IR changes and how they're affecting wage growth. Can you take us through those?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Yeah, look, we are seeing now the largest number of employees covered by enterprise bargaining. So, last quarter it was 2.6 million Australians - it's gone up in this quarter to 2.8 million Australians. And what that, of course, is delivering is flexibility at the workplace level, but it's also delivering wage increases. The enterprise bargains that were struck in the last- in the June quarter have delivered a 4.2 per cent wage increase, which is really good outcomes. The economy-wide wage increase sits at about 3.4 per cent. So this does show that enterprise bargaining is delivering higher wage increases.

Now, of course a lot of people, when they hear these figures, think that it is more public sector employees that are driving this increase. Well, actually, the figures tell a very different story. In fact, I've got the figures just here - 4.3 per cent wage increases were delivered in the private sector compared to 3.9 per cent wage increases delivered in the public sector. So these figures really show that enterprise bargaining is happening. It's happening in the private sector as well as the public sector. And indeed, in the last quarter a new agreement struck, those higher wage increases were actually being delivered by the private sector, which I think is a really important point to make, that enterprise bargaining and these higher wages are happening in the private sector as well as the public sector.

JOSH BUTLER: This week you chaired a meeting, I believe, that endorsed a blueprint for the future of the construction industry. Now, obviously, we've heard a lot about construction and building in recent times. It's a hot topic as we talk about, you know, building homes and housing affordability and things like that. What's that blueprint all about? What have people agreed on?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: The blueprint brought together all the players into one room. It brought Government; it brought all the major employer organisations; some of the subcontractors that often find themselves stuck between perhaps larger players and Government. It also brought together unions. And, of course, we know that there has been difficult times in the construction industry and the Government had to take the very strong action of putting the CFMEU into administration because of some of the behaviour.

But of course, we need to see a pathway forward for the whole industry. I think we've seen other reports that say we need to see more cooperative and constructive behaviour. So, what this blueprint does is it actually paves a pathway forward. It has a number of recommendations in which everyone's going to work together, but probably the most significant is an industry charter about how we expect everyone to work in the construction industry together. What are the things we expect? How do we expect behaviour to occur?

And I think it's really important to recognise that the administrator of the CFMEU has said that they are doing the important work of, you know, cleaning up the union, but it has to be industry wide – it's got to be industry wide. And so that's, really, what this is about. But it's also about a positive, more productive future for the construction industry, not just crisis and problems - how do we all work together in the long term, which I think is really important.

JOSH BUTLER: Yeah, I realise you're obviously one of the ministers in the Government who has sort of one the tougher jobs in getting all the stakeholders in your portfolio going the same direction - unions and employers and small businesses and things like that. As you say, look, obviously, construction has been in the news a lot, both for good reasons, you know, we're talking about building homes and productivity and that sort of thing, but also for some of the less good reasons, you know, some of the union activity and misbehaviour and so forth that you mentioned there. Also concerns about whether Australia's building enough houses; whether the Government can meet the housing targets that you've set, the ambitious ones.

I know you're the Employment Minister, not the Housing Minister, but do you believe some of these changes - these agreements, the charter that you mentioned there - will they go some way to addressing any or all of those concerns?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, I think absolutely a more cooperative building industry does deliver more houses, of course, how we work together. Of course, part of what's in the blueprint is how do we make sure we're investing in the skills that we need? Of course, that involves in Government training, but also employers taking up the opportunity to make sure they're supporting young people coming through.

So, I think what is really important is that there's a shared goal and a shared vision to get this done, of course, and we're all working on the same problem. And I think that's a good thing and will lead to better outcomes.

JOSH BUTLER: So Tony Burke and Murray Watt, who were previously in this ministry, spent lot of time dealing with the fallout from those investigations into the construction unions. Many of those issues seem to have been addressed, so it's been maybe a bit of a less of an urgent task for you personally as the minister. But are you confident that those concerns have been stemmed, that the misbehaviour in the industry at work sites is under control?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: This is a work in progress to make sure we're continuing to do the work. The administrator has talked about the work that he has done, that includes removing a whole lot of people from the union. But he, himself, has acknowledged that the work- there is more work to be done. I think the industry itself and employer organisations have also indicated there is more work to be done.

There is a cultural shift that's required and that's part of what this blueprint is about. What is that cultural shift? Let's get it down on paper and actually all agree that this is what we want to see in a charter for the industry. So, while I still think there is more work to be done and we need to not lose sight of that – and I would acknowledge my predecessors, they did a lot of work in this space - there has been a lot of progress made. But I wouldn't say the job is done yet. I think there is still more work to be done and that's what this blueprint is part of.

JOSH BUTLER: To shift gears a little bit, Minister, you gave a speech to the National Employment Services Association conference last week in Melbourne. There was a couple of interesting things in there that I wanted to unpack a little bit. You spoke about further reform of Australia's employment services system. You spoke about some new complaint data that you would release. I think the part of your speech you were speaking about 85 per cent of recent complaints were about Workforce Australia, that most of those were about service satisfaction. But obviously, you went on to note that a lot of those were resolved very quickly.

But do those sort of statistics concern you as the Minister that people are still really unhappy about the services they receive in what is a very important and obviously very critical part of the industry or sector that we talk about here?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, I think I want to see our Workforce Australia services doing the best they possibly can. I mean, the caseload is over 406,000 and we're talking complaints of 6,175. So, you know, not every single person, obviously, has that experience. But in saying that, we cannot be complacent. And when I see statistics like people with disability making a high proportion of complaints, when we look at trends, to make this data public and to make sure people are focused on it services need to use this data and make sure that they are trying to achieve better.

So, I'm very focused. I am pleased to see that a large number were resolved at the first contact. But look, we need to make sure our service system is more responsive. And part of the message I was talking there about, we can't expect an employment service system where it's one size fits all. People are at different distances from the labour market and our service system needs to be more responsive to how far people are from the labour market. I think, as we move forward, we need to look at we're providing the services at the best possible way, that it is more flexible and responding to people in a way that meets their needs.

JOSH BUTLER: Yeah. So to go to that point, you talk about, you know, recognising that services need to be flexible and meet people where they are and that sort of thing. I wonder if issues around sort of empathy go into that as well. Because I think regular readers of The Guardian would know that we've done a series of stories about employment services, about the quality of job providers, about, you know, some isolated or some of your concerning cases where Jobseekers are having their payments suspended, sometimes while they’re hospital. I mean, these sort of issues seem to hang around for a long time in this portfolio. I've been covering politics for a while and these sort of things have been a sad issue for a while. I mean, how do you start to fix these things and what is being done to actually help people who are getting caught up in those sort of situations?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Yeah. Look, I think as I spoke about, we need to recognise that people are at different distances from the labour market. So, some people can have very complex vocational and non-vocational barriers and so we need a system that is tailored to support them overcome those barriers. For others, it might be a skills gap, you know. They may have been in employment for a period of time and find themselves out of employment and unable to get back in.

I heard one example of an older woman who had had been in the labour market for a very long time, quite sort of a high-level job. Took some time out to care for her mum, thought it would be easy to get back in and it just wasn't. So we need to make sure that we're meeting and supporting people where they're at. Now, for her, she wanted to get back into work straight away. She tried a new program that we were offering called Work Foundations, and she was able to get back and become a disability carer quite quickly.

So, we need to work with people about where they are. And so I think, as we move forward how do we get a system that is putting people at the centre? I think that's really critical. But also recognising where people are in the distance they are from the labour market, and what are some of the things that we can put in place to help them overcome? And it will look different for different people; we can't just put everyone in the same box.

JOSH BUTLER: That definitely makes sense. And as you say, people have levels of employment, a history of education, of workplace readiness and things like that. But to go to, I guess, sort of issues around more specifically on the sort of job provider section, on the mutual obligations part of this. You know, there's been investigations by your department - to be fair, before you were the minister - finding people are getting financial penalties being applied unfairly or incorrectly, I think due to IT issues. There's, again, stories of people having payments cancelled while they're in hospital and they miss a Job Services appointment and things like that. Could there be more flexibility in this system? Could there be more empathy for if someone's in hospital looking after their- you know, if they're in hospital themselves, if they're off looking after their sick kid or their sick mum or they've had an accident on the way to the office? I mean, can there be some more flexibility in that system?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Yeah. Look, I mean, I think we all have a responsibility of how we better respond to Jobseekers and Workforce Australia providers. Of course, mutual obligations is part of our system that we've had in place. And of course, you know, part of that mutual obligation has to be mutual. There's an obligation on whether it's service providers or government support people, and equally that mutual obligation has people engaging. But, you know, we do need to make sure that engagement's in a more meaningful way and a way that gets people closer to a work outcome. In terms of, of course, the lawful administration, I mean, that's really important and the department has taken that issue very seriously - I know the secretary has looked at that very seriously.

So mutual obligations is part of it. But as you rightly identify, how does it actually make sure it's supporting people getting closer to their employment goal? And how is the service system supporting them on that journey? And I think that's where it comes back to some of the complaints data and making that complaints data transparent is we now start to see the trends where service providers might be not doing their best and could do better. And I think that's really important that, A - service providers get that information, but the public get that as well.

JOSH BUTLER: Yeah, exactly. I want to go to a different topic here, and this is one that I'm particularly interested in and everyone's talking about it. Back to your speech, you said- the speech you gave last week, you said, our nation is in the middle of a significant economic shift driven by advances in technology and some other issues as well. You didn't mention the term artificial intelligence, but I know everyone's talking about it, it's hot on everyone's lips. There's so much talk about this technology, what it means for workplaces. As the Minister for Employment, I mean, what do you think about this technological change? What does it mean for employees?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, I think there's a couple of really interesting concepts in the AI in the workplaces, if we give that the umbrella term.

JOSH BUTLER: Yeah.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: The first is really the shift that it means for the types of jobs, and the jobs that could come into the future and whether or not it replaces jobs. And that question is really live. Jobs and Skills Australia did a really interesting report recently talking about the fact in most cases, their analysis suggests that AI will augment jobs, not necessarily replace them, but has acknowledged that it could replace some administrative and clerical roles. But that means there's a big skills challenge of making sure if AI is augmenting roles and adding to roles and playing a role, then how do we make sure that those- taking up those roles or maybe in those roles do have the skills to do that? So I think that's one conversation. 

The second conversation is what role does AI play broadly in the workplace? One of the examples recently has been – and this is less about AI but more about technology –  is there's now a requirement for platforms not to automatically exclude a driver, like an Uber driver or another platform participant – it can't automatically cut them off from the income. There is a right for a person to review that decision about being cut off from a platform. So that's in a very technological space.

But there is a conversation about the role that AI has in supervising workplaces, in HR, and those responsibilities, so- in terms of surveillance as well. So we have a number of obviously different laws that go to, that cover those areas. And so I think one really interesting thing that came out from the jobs and skills is that talking with your employees about the deployment of AI will get you a better job design. So actually having that conversation at the workplace will deliver a better job design into the future. So to get the really successful adoption of AI in the workplace, their message is talk to your employees, talk to the people doing the job, because they will best understand how it can be used. 

The other interesting thing is a lot of- without actual sort of a broad discussion about this, a lot of employees are actually using AI without their employers knowing. And so that's another interesting conversation as well. So, look, there is a really- there is no doubt it will have different impacts, whether it's the job you're currently doing, whether it's the management style or whether actually it indeed displaces you. The good news is there is- Jobs and Skills Australia are looking at that. And I think, as we work through this, these are really, important conversations to have. But looking at where we do have laws in place around privacy, around occupational health and safety, those sorts of things, and how they might interact is also critically important.

JOSH BUTLER: You've raised a number of really fascinating points in that very, very detailed answer there. And I want to try and unpack a couple and whip through a couple before we run out of time. One of them there, you talk about this report saying that there will be better outcomes or there could be better outcomes if employers, workplaces consult with their employees. I know there's been a lot of discussion about what level of input, say, unions or workers groups should get into those kinds of processes. Do you think there is a place for legislated safeguards like that to require consultation or is it more of a- are you sort of saying more this is a- it's a better if you do rather than the Government's going to make you have those conversations?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Yeah, look, I don't think really it's ever very productive if the Government makes people have these conversations. I do think what the report's really showing is you'll get a better outcome. In a lot of enterprise agreements already, there is a responsibility to consult with employees on a range of different areas. So, you know, when there's technological change, it makes sense to be talking about and consulting with employees about this. I think that's really important. 

I think obviously having transparency and discussing transparency in the workplace is also really useful, because what that does is make sure everyone understands and is best prepared for it. But I think really for me what that report showed is it makes commercial sense to- if you want to get the job right and if you want to have the best adoption of AI, consult with the people doing the job because that will be the most likely to succeed. So I do think that's the starting point. And in a number of enterprise agreements, there is consultation when new technology is adopted, that will be different from workplace to workplace.

JOSH BUTLER: And as you say, this is obviously not the first or the only technological innovation to ever be employed in workplaces. I mean, I imagine people had similar discussions when they, I don't know, started rolling out the internet or started rolling out computers rather than typewriters or email or the wheel or whatever it was. I mean, every sort of scholars and experts would say to you, any time there is a major technological change, it flows on through to workplaces. It changes how workplaces are run. Maybe there'll be some job losses in some areas, but it might create more productivity or more job opportunities in other areas. 

But to that exact point, I mean, how do you feel about- as the Employment Minister, as the Workplace Minister, how do you feel about this discussion where, as you alluded to in a previous answer, this could be a change that we'll see changes, potentially job losses. We're already seeing job losses in, say, call centre workers, or clerical staff, or administrative assistants, or lower level lawyer, grad level lawyers, or public servants and that sort of thing. I mean, how do you feel about the type of job displacements or changes that we might see with AI here?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I think one of the key things we've got to do as a government, is to make sure, for example, our employment service system, our training system supports people through that transition. I think that's critically important. We are- I think it's important that there is an open conversation about this. And in fact, as part of the Workplace Consultative Council that is legislated, there is currently a tripartite Government, employers, and employees AI working group to actually have these discussions, having these discussions about what it means. But I think we need to make sure, as the Jobs and Skills Australia report says, that we are making sure we are prepared for this and that we're ready to best support people. 

But I think the report is also very reassuring that, across the board, AI is more likely to augment rather than displace workers, which I think is an important point. But there is a challenge for all of us about how we support this transition, along with a number of other transitions we're going through. And how do we best support workers through that, ensure they’ve got the right skills. And that is, also, a business responsibility as well, ensuring that they’re supporting their workers as they transition jobs and change their duties.

JOSH BUTLER: Minister, I think that’s a great place to leave the conversation. Thank you so much for your time. It’s been great speaking with you. Thank you for chatting with The Guardian.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Great to be with you. Have a good one.