ABC Afternoon Briefing with Patricia Karvelas

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Making huge headlines this week has been Qantas's decision to offshore 850 jobs, citing the looming AI transformation. Follows cuts at other major Australian companies like Canva and Woodside, stemming from artificial intelligence. The government has released draft best practice guidelines for employers, urging them to consult workers before bringing in the technology. I wanted to understand what the government was going to do on all of this. I spoke to the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Amanda Rishworth, a short time ago. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, welcome to the program. 

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Great to be with you. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: In the past two weeks, there has been really a series of major redundancy and offshoring announcements from some of Australia's biggest companies. Tuesday, Qantas said it would shed 150 staff, AI was cited. Last week, Canva revealed about 22 per cent of its workforce would be either sacked or repositioned. Woodside moved to slash five hundred staff because of AI. Aren't we beginning to see big numbers of white collar jobs go in Australia now as a result of AI? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, first I would say any job loss is really difficult for those involved, and so my thoughts are with those that are affected in those occupations. We of course, have historically low unemployment in this country. That's not to say we shouldn't be monitoring, and my department does monitor what is happening in the labour market when it comes to AI. 

At this point in time, we haven't seen significant disruption across the labour market, but we continue to monitor that. I guess my message for those companies that are looking at how they adopt AI is, how do they do it with making sure they're supporting their workforce? Maybe transition to other roles or other jobs within the organisation. I've been concerned for some time that if adoption of AI is seen just as reducing headcount then that is going to erode trust in the community, and so we need to take a different approach when it comes to AI adoption in the workplace. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. You say that we're not yet seeing that mass scale. I just gave you a whole list of what we're seeing just in the last couple of weeks. Isn't there the beginning now of what looks to be a trend to exactly what you're warning against? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, obviously I can't comment on different companies' business strategies. Obviously, Qantas has talked about offshoring and, of course, other companies have cited a range of different reasons. What I'm saying is AI adoption is happening in workplaces - it's happening right now. How do we make sure people are supported, that they have the capability, and that companies are actually planning that if a job is automated that there is some opportunity to take up a different role, different tasks within that company. And that's what you would expect and hope to see. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If business follow your best practice guidelines that you announced today, does that make job losses less likely? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, what we all first know is that there are jobs being added to the Australian economy. And some of the examples that we've cited is businesses proactively getting in front, working out what the capability of their staff are. And then if that job is to be changed or automated, that they're able to move into another role within the company. Because of course, the expertise and skills that an individual has should be absolutely recognised. And so some of the work that's being done is making sure that when new roles are created or other roles exist in a company, that workers are able to move to those roles. 

We are still seeing jobs added to the economy, and indeed our most recent monitoring suggested we are not seeing a huge disruption when it comes to the labour market. But at individual workplace levels, they do need to maintain trust with their workforce. And this workforce planning is really critical to make sure it's proactive and that companies get ahead of it as roles and jobs change. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Will AI result in a net gain or a loss of jobs overall? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well look, I'm not doing any predicting - there's other people that will do that. But what I would say is that Jobs and Skills Australia has said, in the medium term the vast majority of jobs are going to be augmented. Which means additional tasks will be added to people's jobs, or AI might support people in certain parts of their role and that should, importantly, bring benefit for the worker. 

And that's what this best practice guide that I've launched today, has said. It's talking about, for workers to embrace AI they must see the benefits that come along with it, and that is what's really critical. And so, those benefits can be in different ways. But certainly Jobs and Skills Australia expect employment still to grow and that the vast majority of roles are augmented as a result of AI. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Should people be looking at retraining, not just hoping their companies do what you've cited in your speech today? The Commonwealth Bank is doing, you say, well but, actually, some government-led leadership around where that retraining should happen. Do you need to be clear with people about what those jobs will be, so they can seek the skills and get the support to be able to be first in the line for them? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well first I would say, we invest a lot into training and training people around, you know, jobs that are in demand. We do, obviously, fund training through TAFE and through university. What has really come out through this best practice is AI is in the workplace now, it is in many places affecting individual tasks. And so, what is really clear is businesses must invest in those workers. Because they need to have the confidence and capability to embrace AI, to allow it to support them with their job and to understand what it's trying to actually solve. 

That's why at the key of this best practice is transparency, capability, and collaboration. And it's up to, really, businesses. And we hear where this is going. Well, businesses are investing, upskilling, doing extra training - not putting people in front of a generic video, but actually supporting people to train to see how exactly it fits in with their job and how they can be best supported. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We've seen support packages for workers in industries that the government considers critical to sovereign capability. When will you shift that strategy to the white-collar workforce? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: We are not seeing, at this point, a significant readjustment when it comes to mass job losses - that's not what our monitoring is saying. When it comes to monitoring, now, of course we will continue to monitor that. But are there a new roles being created.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Can I interrupt. When will we know if it's going to change into a mass event? Because I just think the metrics around that- like right now if you're at Qantas, where the jobs are being offshored so they can turn into AI jobs, they're not therefore human jobs, you'd feel very much like it's come - that the freight train has already hit you. 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, Qantas has given a commitment, and we would expect Qantas to look at what other jobs those workers can move into. I mean, that's what's critical here is what are the new jobs, the extra jobs that Qantas say they're putting on that those workers can move into and be supported and skilled to work into. 

But I think, Patricia, AI is being adopted right across a range of industries - not just white collar jobs, but also in nursing and the other areas. We need to ensure people have the confidence that businesses are working in collaboration with workers. Because we know that just bringing AI into the workplace isn't going to solve a productivity question and is not going to solve a trust question if it's not managed very carefully. 

So I think, as I've said from the outset, the vast majority of roles are being augmented. It's happening now across the country. What we need to do is ensure that capability. And there is a responsibility on business and company to support that transition of their workforce. Qantas has made a commitment to do that, and we would expect that they would do that. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I just want to change the topic. Recently, the Productivity Commission Chair Danielle Wood said you need to look at your industrial relations reforms to assess the role they might be having in our current economic malaise. Are you prepared to look at them? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well firstly I would say, and I've said this about productivity in the past, paying people less doesn't get you more productivity - it just leads to lower wages. So, our focus has been on ensuring that people can get wage increases, many of our changes have been about encouraging enterprise bargaining which allows for productivity gains at the workplace. So, I do not concur that paying people less in a workplace suddenly gets you productivity gains. That just makes people poorer.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: To be fair, that's not what she suggests. I'm not saying, are you prepared to pay people less. It’s looking at the industrial relations system - the laws, the regulations, the whole architecture. Do you need to bring forward a proper, independent review to try and see whether these laws are contributing to some of the economic problems we're having? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I'm not clear exactly which part of the laws that Danielle Wood is referring to. But what I would say, we are, of course, always trying to make sure our laws are fit for purpose. And that's why there's currently a House of Representatives inquiry into the National Employment Standards to ensure - they haven't been reviewed for 15 years to ensure they're fit for purpose. 

But when we talk about the reforms that the government has undertaken, our reforms have been about getting wages moving - we think that's an important thing. And that's where I come back to the point that I made - by paying people less does not get productivity gain. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So you don't- just to be clear, you won't look at the laws? You don't think they need to be reviewed independently?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, there is currently a House of Representatives committee looking at, for example, the National Employment Standards. We've had reviews actually occur about our Secure Jobs Bill and our Closing the Loopholes Bill. But what I would say when it comes to the question of productivity, watering down protections for workers and them earning less is not the answer to productivity in this country. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But you don't think the industrial relations laws have an impact on productivity at the moment?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I would like you to point to me, like, which law is it? Is it the law that allows people to have a safety net? 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, we wouldn't know unless we reviewed it, with respect, Minister. That's the point of looking at it. 

AMANDA RISHWORTH:  Well, no. Well, the laws are clear. For example, if you rely on the award system, your penalty rates are protected - that's a really important principle, that if you work unsociable hours. Now, is the suggestion that that's not productive? Of course, if a business wants to engage with its workforce to negotiate different arrangements, they can do that through collective agreement. You know, as I said, we're always trying to see if our laws are fit for purpose.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Multi-Employer Bargaining, Same Job Same Pay - you don't think those laws should be assessed for the contribution.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, they have been. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, there hasn't been an independent review.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: They have been. There has been an independent review, they’ve both been published. What was said is the laws were achieving what was intended. They said it's a little early to be able to have a look across the board, and so we've committed to, you know, looking at it again. But they have been looked at. 

Now, just you gave one example, Same Job Same Pay - that's a pretty basic Australian principle that your wages should not be undercut by bringing in labour hire to pay you less. I'm not really sure how that law, changing that law, and paying people less and allowing their wages to be undercut would add to productivity. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just finally, we talked about AI, but data centres obviously underpin AI. Quantum DC has delayed its planned hyperscale AI data centre in the Adelaide Hills. Now, of course you're from Adelaide so I thought this was a perfect question for you. Do you support the delay and the community being better consulted? 

AMANDA RISHWORTH: I think it's really important that there is social licence when it comes to the development of data centres. That's exactly why our government is working through what these standards might look like for data centres with states and territories. And actually looking at, you know, how do we make sure they don't draw on or don't have a deficit when it comes to power or water - that there's not negative impact. So, we're working very hard as a Commonwealth Government. Obviously local planning rules are for state governments. But I think ensuring that there's social licence and that this type of investment works for people, not the other way around, is really important. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, many thanks for joining us this afternoon. 

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