Interview with David Speers - ABC Insiders
DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Brendan O'Connor, you've barely aged a day, thanks so much for joining us.
BRENDAN O'CONNOR, MINISTER FOR SKILLS AND TRAINING: Thanks very much, David. I'm glad to say my fashion sense has improved somewhat.
SPEERS: No comment from me. Look, I'm interested in your thoughts looking back, you know, the 2001 election which Labor lost, you were opposed to things like offshore processing and turning back boats, you were opposed to the GST back then as well. Has Labor over that time become more pragmatic, do you think? Are we seeing a shift from Labor over those two decades to where you are now?
O'CONNOR: Well, that's a good question. I think it's fair to say the context of my first speech was when I was very dismayed about the lies that were said about kids being thrown overboard, that was sort of the context in which I found myself in relation to that matter. To win an election based on demonising people about a matter that didn't happen, really did incense me. But you're right to say over time, and certainly being in the two very significantly challenging portfolios of Home Affairs and Immigration, I realised we had to really consider our policies, and in fact I'm very proud of the fact that I helped change the platform and the policies of the Australian Labor Party.
SPEERS: How hard was that; that can't be easy?
O'CONNOR: Well, it took a number of National Conferences, but I really believe if we did not change considerably, we would not have been an electable political party, and to the great credit of the Australian Labor Party those changes were made, but it was not easy. It's easy to tell your opponents you disagree with them, it's much harder to tell your friends, but I felt after the disaster that happened on Christmas Island, of which I was having to respond to as Home Affairs Minister, not long after that there was the 2011 National Conference, and I debated, along with Chris Bowen and others, the need to make changes and changes we made, and that really ensured, in my view, a political party that could be re‑elected and have the confidence of the Australian people. So, I'm proud of that very difficult debate, but one that needed to be had.
SPEERS: Just reflecting too on that period back then, after the 2001 election, Labor went into this period of incredible turmoil, you went from Kim Beazley as leader then to Simon Crean, Mark Latham, back to Kim Beazley, then you had Kevin Rudd, then Julia Gillard, back to Kevin Rudd. Looking back on it all, you were there, you lived through it all, what was going on; what was the cause of all of that turmoil?
O'CONNOR: I think it's hard to know, but can I just tell you this: the one thing the current government understands is we do not want to and we will not return to that conduct, and in fact the Cabinet is replete with ministers who endured and experienced some of those tumultuous times, and that really informs our current behaviour; unified, cohesive, considered and ordered, chaired in the Cabinet by the Prime Minister, who understands fully that unity and cohesion and a proper, considered Westminster Cabinet and government is critical not just for the political party, but for the country, particularly when there are times of, you know, difficulty and anxiety in the community about a number of issues.
SPEERS: But looking back then, what was going on? Can you put your finger on why the party was in such turmoil?
O'CONNOR: You think about a very long‑term Hawke‑Keating period, you go into opposition, and, you know, you're having difficulty transitioning from government to opposition, and I think it's very difficult sometimes for long‑term governments who then go into opposition to really find their way, and the same, of course, in the last nine years the previous government had changes. In fact, since, as you know, David, it hasn't been since John Howard that we've seen a Prime Minister go to the next election. But I can assure you that Anthony Albanese will be going to the next election to be re‑elected as Prime Minister ‑‑
SPEERS: All right.
O'CONNOR: ‑‑ and that sort of cohesion and unity is critical.
SPEERS: Who was the best and worst Labor leaders you served?
O'CONNOR: Well, clearly Mark Latham turned out to be the worst leader and didn't deliver and certainly didn't perform well and frankly was a mistake. You know, politics is fickle, and there are people who could well have been Prime Minister, like Kim Beazley, but obviously circumstances also matter, and sometimes you find yourself in a much better position, but in the end, it takes a lot of grit. And Kevin Rudd deserves enormous credit winning the 2007 election, and Julia Gillard, as the first and only woman Prime Minister of Australia, of course, did a remarkable job in very difficult circumstances with minority government. So, I'm very proud of those days, but I'm not proud of some of the indiscipline and internal conflicts that were unnecessary, and that's why you don't see that happening under this government.
SPEERS: You mentioned that time as Home Affairs and Immigration Minister. You've held many portfolios. I want to just turn to another one, Defence. You were Shadow Defence Minister before the last election when Scott Morrison brought to Labor, and you were in the room, the AUKUS deal. Labor, you agreed to sign up very quickly to that. Just take us into the room. What was going on there? How easy or difficult was that decision?
O'CONNOR: Well, look, obviously the timing is compressed because of the arrangement between two other countries. We're in opposition, so we don't control the processes. But the government did present to us the tenets and the framework of AUKUS. The now Prime Minister and now Foreign Minister and now Deputy Prime Minister and I, as I was then the Shadow Defence Minister, were being briefed on those issues, and it was obviously a very significant moment for us as an Opposition, and for the country frankly, but the now Prime Minister, the Opposition Leader at the time, Anthony Albanese, understood the importance of what was being put to us. We had conversations about the matter after the briefing, and then you might recall it was during the pandemic in September 2021, so restrictions were still there, but we had to in that very, very tight timeframe convene the Shadow Cabinet and convene a caucus, which we did online, partly because of timing, but also because of COVID restrictions. And I just want to make it very clear, because I've seen contrary views, that the Shadow Cabinet unanimously adopted the submission that was put to the Shadow Cabinet, and the caucus voted for the proposition without dissent, and then we were in a position formally to inform the government that we supported the direction that they were taking with respect to AUKUS.
SPEERS: I want to ask you about Labor's relationship with the unions, because you came into Parliament after being Assistant National Secretary of the Australian Services Union, your brother led the CFMEU until he fell out with John Setka, of course. The relationship with the unions, has it changed much, do the unions still have as much influence over Labor as they always have?
O'CONNOR: The Labor Party sprung from the labour movement, it's the oldest enduring political party in Australia, it precedes federation, and of course to get political, to be in the Parliament, to represent working people. We've seen the Labor Party really be there since the beginning of this nation, and it is inextricably linked to the union movement, and I think that's a good thing. It's good to have, in my view, workers sitting around a table. Labor governments always sit around a table with businesses and workers. I don't think the Liberal Party can claim that they sit around the table with workers. I think that's one of their fundamental weaknesses. I'm a big supporter of tripartism, working through national challenges by bringing constituent parts of the economy together, and I think doing it in a way that allows working people and businesses to sit with government is the best way to deal with the challenges we confront -
SPEERS: Sure, but you also get these problems of bad behaviour in unions, like we're seeing with the CFMEU right now. I know Labor's suspended its ties. Do you genuinely think that union can fix its problems?
O'CONNOR: Well, firstly, you see bad behaviour and corruption in all areas of society, and if it happens in the union movement it has to be stamped out. I mean there's literally, there is no tolerance for criminal behaviour, and nobody's above the law, and that doesn't matter whether it's a union official, a union or a corporate director, and I think the Labor Party has been absolutely right, and Minister Burke has been absolutely right, in ensuring the appointment of an administrator in relation to that union.
SPEERS: Why do you think Labor's primary vote has tracked down since ‑ I mean you go back to 2001, sure you lost the election, but I think your primary vote was up at ‑ well, nearly 38 per cent. You won the 2022 election, but your primary vote was down near 33 per cent. Why has it been falling?
O'CONNOR: I think major parties generally have seen a decline in their primary vote, and it tends to be lower during the course of a Parliamentary term where people are expressing their concerns about any given issue, and it seems to rise as you get close to the election, to some extent. But I concede the point that you make, David, that major parties have difficulties holding on to as many voters as they once had. That's true. I will say this though, the Australian Labor Party is probably the only party on its own that actually could form a majority in the House of Representatives and form government. I mean the Liberal Party does rely upon the Nationals to form a government.
Right now, the ALP, of course, forms a government on its own, and we're looking forward to doing that again after the election.
SPEERS: All right. A couple of ones to finish on. The Prime Minister's reshuffle that he's announcing today, who deserves a promotion, Brendan O'Connor?
O'CONNOR: Well, look, I'm friends to all of my colleagues, David, and I think there are many people who are worthy of promotion. I think we're a good government, we're not perfect, but we're a good government.
SPEERS: Give me a name or two. Give me a name or two. Who should get a leg up?
O'CONNOR: Well, I think people mentioned Murray Watt, I think he's done a great job on Agriculture, and he and I work very closely on the Skills area. I think there's a lot of people though. It's great to see that it very looks likely that Malarndirri and Jenny will enter the Ministry. They're Assistant Ministers now, they've both got remarkable energy and talent, and I do look forward to watching them, if that's the case, in the Ministry. Obviously, the Prime Minister's going to be making decisions this afternoon, David, in terms of the allocation of portfolios and swearing people in tomorrow. So, this is my last day as Minister, and here I am talking to you ‑‑
SPEERS: We do appreciate it.
O'CONNOR: ‑‑ on probably my last appearance. I think this is my 15th appearance on Insiders, so ‑‑
SPEERS: Wow, there you go.
O'CONNOR: ‑‑ that's another metric as to why I probably should move on.
SPEERS: No, we do ‑‑
O'CONNOR: But it's been ‑‑
SPEERS: ‑‑ we do appreciate it. Just, I've got to ask you though, you mentioned your role as Immigration Minister. I think Labor went through about four ministers during its time in government in the Immigration portfolio. It's not easy.
O'CONNOR: No, it's not easy.
SPEERS: Would you be surprised to see Andrew Giles moved?
O'CONNOR: No, it's not easy, and no, I think that may well happen, and the fact is, sometimes people should understand that you might reflect on the performance of a Minister, but sometimes you should have regard to the nature of the portfolio. Some portfolios are very, very challenging, and therefore it's not always fair just to blame the person that sits in that portfolio, because anyone sitting in certain portfolios would find it challenging, that's my personal experience from what I've dealt with over time, so I think we should take that into account when we're considering the character and capability of people.
SPEERS: Final one. There is a vacancy coming up as Australia's Ambassador to Ireland that you might have heard about. Your name's been mentioned there to replace Gary Gray. Are we going to see you in Dublin sometime soon?
O'CONNOR: Oh, well, look, that would be a great honour, but as I said on Thursday when I was at the press conference with the Prime Minister and Minister Burney, my focus, after I leave Parliament, which is probably in six or eight months from now, is to focus on my family, my daughter in particular, who's doing Year 11 this year, Year 12 next year, and I want to be focused on that. I saw the speculation, but my focus is ensuring I do the right thing by my daughter who's been remarkably resilient and allowed me to perform in these roles for some time.
SPEERS: Well, Brendan O'Connor, I think I've probably interviewed you in all of your various roles over the last 23 years or so. I do appreciate all of them, and we wish you well. Thanks for joining us.
O'CONNOR: Thanks very much David.