Television interview - Sky News Afternoon Agenda

TOM CONNELL, HOST: Let's return to the Coalition call on so-called 'ISIS brides' and their children. They're challenging the federal Government to have new laws in place to potentially block them, or those in a similar position, from coming back into the country. Joining me live now, Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman and former Liberal MP, Jason Falinski. So Patrick to you on this first of all, we heard the Prime Minister quote his mother, 'make your bed and then you lie in it.' If the Government doesn't want these people here, and the Opposition says, 'well, here are some laws we'll help you pass.' Will you therefore go down this path?

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Tom, it wasn't that long ago we've seen the Coalition calling for laws that then just a few weeks later they refused to vote for in Parliament. So you'll excuse my scepticism about Angus Taylor's latest legislative proposal, which I'll note is a media release, not actually a law that could be voted on or considered by the Parliament next week. What we are doing is reviewing all of the existing laws that we can use to make sure that if any of these people find their way to Australia and they need to be prosecuted, they can be done so with the full force of the law. I think it's important your viewers know we have not assisted this cohort. We will not assist this cohort. I'm really hardline on this. These people have made terrible life decisions that have not just affected them, but affected their children.

CONNELL: You’re hardline going, 'well, too bad for the children', too? The report from Save the Children you've had, there was an eight-year-old, malnourished, teeth rotting, and you say, 'well, I know it's not your fault, but you're not coming to the country either.'

GORMAN: I think like most reasonable Australians, when I see children in humanitarian camps anywhere in the world, you have a level of sympathy for them, where they are the victims of terrible decisions made by adults. But I take national security incredibly seriously, and that's how we have to approach this very difficult and complex situation.

CONNELL: Why not new laws though? If you say you're hardline on it, does that mean new laws would be considered as well?

GORMAN: The first thing we do on all of these matters is, we take advice from our national security agencies. Angus Taylor would know that, he was a junior Minister under Peter Dutton in the Home Affairs portfolio. He would know that that's how you have these conversations.

CONNELL: You can say 'and if those laws in place aren't there, we would pursue others', that's an option.

GORMAN: I'm cautious about what I say. I recognise that there's a lot of public interest in this. Unfortunately, what I also know is that there would be people who are looking to assist these individuals who've made horrendous life decisions, watching what I and my colleagues say. I've got to be careful about that, but I don't want to give any comfort in anything I say to these individuals who have made stupid decisions in support of an abhorrent cause.

CONNELL: Jason, your thoughts? It'd be a dramatic shift, wouldn't it, to sort of redefine your rights as an Australian-born citizen.

JASON FALINSKI, FORMER LIBERAL MP: Yeah, that's pretty dramatic, Tom, you're right. But I just think that this is a Government that you know will ban cold-calling, or people knocking on doors, and we have a legitimate concern here, particularly given what happened at Bondi Beach, about the safety and security of ordinary Australians - and it is very happy to change laws on a whole bunch of other things. And I think there's a very strong and emerging view amongst many Australians that Tony Burke and some of the actions he has taken has been about gaming the immigration system. This would be one way to absolutely put that to bed and to bury those concerns amongst many Australians. Angus Taylor has come out today and said that it would have broad range support from him so there is no one pushing on the other side of the door. So we can have lots of statements about how concerned everyone is, but the ability to do something is obviously, very clearly there for the Government.

CONNELL: How are you saying he's gamed the system?

FALINSKI: Look, for example, if you go online - and I'm not saying - yeah, if you go online, there are a lot of people who sort of point to the citizenship ceremonies that were rushed through prior to the last election, presided over by Tony Burke himself. And that's a very unusual circumstance, and given the timing and the circumstances in which that occurred, there are people who jump to conclusions about that and the reasons and rationale for it.

GORMAN: Jason, don't hide behind anonymous comments on the internet. Do you think that people who've gone through all of the citizenship checks should be denied a citizenship ceremony? Because this was local governments who just hadn't scheduled citizenships for people. So of course, Home Affairs will host citizenships, as they did when you were in government. And if you want to hide behind Facebook comments -

FALINSKI: Yeah sure, no, no, Patrick, I'm glad -

GORMAN: - that's one thing, but you should own your own comments. 

FALINSKI: Well, you've asked me a question I'm very happy to answer it, Patrick, and I will do so. You and I are on a unity ticket when it comes to the incompetence of local government. So tick on that one. The second thing when it comes to Tony Burke, if these citizenships were so urgent and so necessary, and required the intervention of the Department of Home Affairs. Why did they cease the moment the federal election was over? Why were they only urgent and necessary prior to the federal election? 

GORMAN: That's not true.

FALINSKI: Isn't it?

GORMAN: No, I've been to Home Affairs citizenship ceremonies that were hosted just a few months ago in my electorate, I'll send you the details.

FALINSKI: Well, we're about to have a data-off. Sounds like we're about to have a fact-off Patrick, because I'm pretty certain that they were weighted heavily towards before the federal election.

CONNELL: Yeah, so Patrick, were more happening in the lead up to the election? Could you, do you have the numbers on that?

GORMAN: My recollection is I have attended on average about one Home Affairs citizenship ceremony a year in my electorate. I think I've been to three in total in the last 3-4 years – 

CONNELL: Without knowing all those, Jason - 

FALINSKI: No, no, no, and also Patrick I just want to make something very clear. I was very unhappy with the way that my local council was doing citizenships, and the Home Affairs Department refused, literally refused, to undertake them. So what is it about, why did you guys change that policy?

GORMAN: Maybe Jason, this is because of your good advocacy over a period of time, a better path has been found to make sure -

FALINSKI: Indeed.

GORMAN: - for people to, remember the citizenship ceremony is once all of the checks and balances are done. It can often take people six or seven years to go through that citizenship journey. These are people who are often working in Australia, they might have children here. They've made a huge contribution to Australian life. They're some of the proudest Australians you'll ever meet.

CONNELL: So just on this, Jason, so you're saying that more ceremonies were held compared to normal, to help Labor win the election? That's where this has to go, isn't it? This has been voiced by some people, you start off by saying you can see it on the internet. You sort of need a bit more, I mean, I'm not here to defend Labor, I don't know the exact numbers that happened before or after. But that's a pretty strong accusation without the cold hard data, isn't it?

FALINSKI: Yeah, I think that's a good point, Tom, and I'll go and get the cold hard data, as you describe it. But look, it's not an accusation that I've made. It's an accusation that was on on the internet. It was an accusation made –

GORMAN: Jason! I'm going to give you a hot tip. Don't believe everything you read on the internet!

FALINSKI: Thank you, Patrick. It was also in many newspapers, and it was a curious development at the time. So I will go and get the data, Tom -

CONNELL: We're going to get the cold hard data.

FALINSKI: I'm sure Patrick will have alternative data, but yes this is not something that was done commonly prior to the federal election.

CONNELL: We'll set you up a touch screen Jason, you can audition for my job.

GORMAN: I think he's going to need pins and string to put this one together, Tom.

FALINSKI: I don't think so. Patrick, it's a very simple question. When was this done prior to the federal election?

CONNELL: We're going to let you gather that data, Jason, maybe I will, sounds like something I should do.

GORMAN: Jason, you would know that the Department of Home Affairs commonly hosts on Citizenship Day, which from memory is 17 September each year.

FALINSKI: No they don't! This is my point. 

CONNELL: We'll figure out -

GORMAN: Yes they do! You know that.

FALINSKI: No I don't! I know the opposite Patrick. The one thing I know for sure is that -

CONNELL: Jason, you've got your chance. Get your numbers in, send it to the WhatsApp group next week, and we'll see how we go. 

FALINSKI: Will do.

CONNELL: I'm a bit flustered now, what are we going to go to next? Patrick, capital gains tax changes. So, one potential issue here, a lot of people 'rentvest' these days, so the first property they buy isn't where they want to live, so they get something in an okay area, and they rent it out in a hope they sell it, to get where they really want to live. Would a change to this punish them? Would you see that as a fairness issue, or is that sort of just too bad, that's what CGT was designed for. What are you make of that potential unintended consequence, if you like?

GORMAN: You are asking me a hypothetical about a policy that isn't government policy. What I will say to those first home buyers -

CONNELL: I think you can just freelance, you know, we're in a safe space here.

GORMAN: Jason and I were having a great freelancing conversation before, and you tried to rein us in. So I'm trying to be very respectful of the panel process. You can't resolve every debate in the WhatsApp group.

FALINSKI: [inaudible]

GORMAN: We've tried to find new ways to help first home buyers. The 5 per cent deposit scheme, shared equity schemes, obviously the massive investment we're making in building - including the announcement the Prime Minister made not that long ago in South Australia, where we've got new land development for first home buyers. We're doing everything we can to find practical ways to support those first home buyers. Of course, that means they have more choices. They can choose to purchase an investment property first if that's the best choice for them.

CONNELL: It's like that Question Time question that people regret asking you, 'yeah I made that too broad, that was a waste of time.' My fault, Patrick, not yours.

FALINSKI: I agree with you. 

GORMAN: Don't blame yourself, Tom. We're all on a journey of continuous improvement.

CONNELL: Alright, I'll go back to tactics Tom and figure that out. But Jason, very quickly, where do you think the Liberal Party should go on this? Is it sort of everything that is a new tax is bad? Or do they need to think about intergenerational equality if Labor's going down this path.

FALINSKI: Tom, look, as you and I have discussed at length, the problem here is not taxation. The problem here is spending. Because spending is actually your tax take. It's whether you pay it now or in the future that matters, or, you know, you will pay it either now or in the future. So Labor has to reduce spending. Patrick made some pejorative remark last week about public servants, but he forgot to mention that Australia has the highest number of public servants per capita in the world, and it's costing nearly a quarter of a trillion dollars a year. And I don't think even he could seriously look at the camera and say, we're getting good value for money when it comes to that. Plus, they promised us that they would reduce how much they were spending on consultants, and as I understand that that number's actually gone up. So you know, we have a spending problem in Australia. Every time you listen to Jim Chalmers, he's trying to work out a way to take more money out of your back pocket, because he can't actually be bothered doing the hard work, he and Katy Gallagher, of getting better value for money out of the tax that he's already taking off you.

CONNELL: We're out of time. So you just, you can come up with your own notes on that next week, Patrick, while Jason's are after Jason's presented his citizenship ceremony rate per day, I think we'll call them until then.

FALINSKI: Per capita, yeah.

CONNELL: There you go.