Radio interview with Paul Culliver - ABC Radio Newcastle Breakfast

PAUL CULLIVER, HOST: Now, if you've ever been a job seeker, you know that there are some well hurdles to leap over, so that you can access Jobseeker payments, but of course, the idea is that the government wants you to get back into employment, get a job. Is it fit for purpose, though? There are various services that are employed, getting paid by the government to help you get that job, is it doing its job in the most efficient way? Well, some change has been announced by the federal government, and Patrick Gorman, the Assistant Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, is in Newcastle today to talk about some of it. So, Patrick Gorman, good morning to you.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Paul. Good morning to you, and good morning to your listeners.

CULLIVER: Great to have you here. Once these changes have been finalised, implemented, if you lose your job and you front up to Centrelink, what happens next? How are things going to change?

GORMAN: Yeah, so how it will change is that you will have access to more specially targeted services to your unique circumstances. That might be for some people who are just going from one job to the next and need a little bit of support. It might be an online service that's got better support. Some of it might be those general provider-led services that help people with resumes, applying for jobs, building up their skills to transition to a slightly different role.

And the other area that I am really excited about in the work that Amanda Rishworth and I are doing, in terms of consulting on how do we get a better employment services system, is those more customised, tailored supports for people who have been too far away from the job market for too long.

If I tell your listeners the big problem that we are trying to solve, it is that one in five of the people who are in the employment services system are there for more than five years. So they are not finding work, it is not working for them, and they are not getting that support to transition from unemployment into all of those social and economic benefits of work.

CULLIVER: I dare say people might hear that and say, 'well, these are people that don't want to work, there is no solution.' What do you say to that sort of thinking?

GORMAN: I do a lot of work in this space. The people I meet who are looking for work really do want to get a job. They know that it's their connection to their community, it's their connection to economic opportunity and aspiration.

But also they have been telling us for a period of time that the system that was designed in the 1990s is not working today. Let's remember the system we are using now has not had significant reform in 30 years. Back then, people were calling up employers on landline phones, they were sending off resumes, not on email, they were sending their resumes off in the post. I mean, it's a very different world, so we need to change the system.

CULLIVER: Okay, so is it twofold? Because you can think about in terms of the assistance provided to, I guess, so-called long-term unemployed, but it's also about the incentive or the disincentive. Do you change the carrot and the stick, in terms of people taking that initiative to get themselves into a job?

GORMAN: Yeah, we are going to look at what are what we call 'mutual obligations.' So, one of the things that myself and Sharon Claydon will be discussing today, when we are out talking about how do we consult with people, holding the consultations here in Newcastle for the Newcastle Hunter Region of employment services is what should those employment services, and the mutual obligations that come along with them, look like? We recognise that at the moment it's a bit of a 'one size fits all,' and we should have more tailored mutual obligations that fit to individual participants' employment goals.

CULLIVER: Yeah, can you talk a bit more about mutual obligations? People might know about this, simply in terms of - sometimes it's literally, you've got to apply for 10 jobs in a week, or in a month, or whatever it might be, and the perverse effect of that is that you might get all sorts of employers get inundated with job ads that they know are from people that clearly don't actually want the job, are in no way skilled or appropriate for the job, they're just applying to tick a box, quite literally.

GORMAN: Yeah, we have all heard those stories of employers who are running good, successful businesses and do want staff, but going, they just cannot deal with the deluge of resumes or things that are coming in.

And so we want to make sure that the mutual obligations are there, because we recognise that that is part of the compact between the taxpayers who fund this service and those who rely upon it. But that they are tailored to actual realistic goals and actual realistic job aspirations, and so that will be much more tailored to individuals.

And we also want a system that is better for employers. We talk about this a lot from the point of view of job seekers, and rightly so, but equally this is about helping employers fill skills gaps and fill gaps in their businesses, so they can continue to grow. So, we want to make sure that the advice that people are getting through these services are about saying, 'well, here is where the skills gaps are in a particular region.'

ecause currently some of those mutual obligations, they are the same wherever you live in Australia, and I can tell you, I'm from Perth, in Western Australia. I can tell you the job market in Perth is different to the job market here in Newcastle and the Hunter. So, of course, we need different mutual obligations and different employment goals, depending on where people are living, and if we are more realistic about that, we will get better outcomes.

CULLIVER: On 1233 ABC Newcastle, your guest this morning in studio in Newcastle, Patrick Gorman, Assistant Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, 1233 ABC Newcastle. If you do want to have your say, certainly share your experience. If you've been a job seeker or a friend or family member going through that experience of ticking all the boxes, jumping over those hurdles, so that you can continue to receive Jobseeker and the like. 0487 99 12 33 Assistant Minister, to gain an understanding of this as well, because as you refer to, there are these employment services, there are various private organisations, businesses that are paid by the government to help people into work. There's been some criticism that the fee structure for that has been a sort of 'one size fits all.' Therefore, you go for the so-called 'low hanging fruit,' the people that are about to get a job, you get them into a job, you get paid. How do you actually improve on that? To say, 'let's actually focus on people that need a bit more help,' but also incentivise employment services to do that?

GORMAN: Yeah, that is where we see that building these new intensive services, as we describe them, will make a real difference. That is getting a range of providers who are focused on the needs of different cohorts of that job seeker community and making sure that they have got the supports they need.

To be honest with your listeners, it is a massive procurement and it is a massive government expenditure that we have on employment services. We spend about $2 billion a year on these services. That is a significant investment, and of course, Minister Rishworth and myself want to make sure that we are getting the absolute best value for money out of that investment, and that means trying to tie all of those investments to outcomes, and again, really focused on that cohort that obviously aren't getting the sorts of supports to move closer to the job market.

Now, I recognise for some people it might be that their first step isn't applying for a job, it might be going and getting additional skills. And for some people it might even just be building up their confidence. If you have been out of the job market for more than five years, the idea of going to an interview for a job can be very daunting. But if we give people the right supports and we recognise that they have from their previous work experiences, their other contributions to the community, they have got those strengths and help them through that framework to make sure they do have the confidence to apply and be successful at a job. Then we will have much better outcomes.

And, of course, one of the things we are doing in the consultations today is to talk about how do we get all those incentives right for the providers, so it works for the provider. We want, we need these services. They are essential to helping people back into work, but also we need to make sure that they are getting outcomes for everyone who participates, not just as you describe, 'the low hanging fruit.'

CULLIVER: Sure, which is to describe the people that are very close to getting back into the job market, to be clear. But certainly a euphemism perhaps listeners understand. To talk about as well, there has been some criticism. There are many criticisms I could cite, of course, of employment services, which is why this reform is being suggested today.

But I wanted to talk about as well people that have been - basically an assessment's been made to say 'oh, you're not meeting this mutual obligation, or you're not doing the right thing,' whatever it might be, being kicked off welfare, being kicked off Jobseeker.

The Commonwealth Ombudsman, in many cases, saying 'actually this is not right,' being reinstated on that welfare. You go through all the stress of - if you are living, like, cheque to cheque, government payment to government payment, and then to have to go and prove that you were, you were eligible for it all along, how are we going to improve that system, so that we're not basically penalising and demonising people where they should actually be getting that support?

GORMAN: Well, let's firstly say that we had a very recent experience in our living memory when it came to the pandemic, where a range of people lost their jobs because of no fault of their own, but because of economic and health circumstances outside of their control.

So I recognise that the vast majority of people who find themselves looking for work, it's not because of anything they've done wrong, it is because of economic circumstances beyond their individual control. And that is why they deserve the support from their fellow Australian citizens funded through this program.

And then if you go to the question about how do you make sure that people who are receiving payments through our social security system are getting those payments. Of course, that kind of marries with the changes to mutual obligations. Trying to make sure that that's an agreement between the participant who is participating in our employment services system and the government, in terms of saying, 'we will provide you with these financial supports,' and we can do that better.

We have been really open about that in the discussion paper, and it is probably an opportunity for me to say, if you've got listeners who have experienced something where they think the system was not working and actually it made their life more stressful, and it took their focus away from looking for work, and took them to be focusing on those administrative matters, or sometimes having to fight for a payment. I would encourage them to write in to this consultation to put their views forward.

Because we need to hear from everyone. And one of the things is we do have as part of these consultations is a Lived Experience panel. We are asking for people to nominate for that panel, so they can tell us, both what has worked in the employment services system, but they can also tell us what didn't work. Where they saw a failure, where they saw a gap, and where the system let them down. We need to hear all of that, because this is a once in a generation opportunity to fix the system. It is a broken system, so let's fix it together and fix it well.

CULLIVER: Appreciate your time in the studio today to talk through some of these planned changes, and we'll look forward to seeing where it goes. Thank you, Patrick.

GORMAN: Thank you, Paul.