Radio interview with Geraldine Mellet - ABC Perth Drive

GERALDINE MELLET, HOST: And in the blue corner, we have Senator Dean Smith, Shadow Assistant Treasurer. And in the red corner, we have Patrick Gorman, Assistant Minister to the PM. I don't know, do you have your boxing gloves on? Because it sounds like it's that kind of – that kind of gig.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: No. Very peaceful here. We're both in the Canberra studio after some pretty intense parliamentary sittings. 

DEAN SMITH, LIBERAL SENATOR FOR WA: On our best behaviour. We're sharing the same studio, Geraldine. So, the cameras are on, people can hear.

MELLET: Okay.

SMITH: We are on air, as it says.

MELLET: Lovely. Well, thank you for joining us. Look, Patrick, starting with you. July 1st, we all get a tax cut, but the fuel excise is being staggered. Are we kind of not taking from one hand to give to the other a little on that?

GORMAN: Look, what we wanted to do was to make sure there was more support for those motorists who are relying on that fuel excise reduction. So, that's still 16 cents a litre, and that's for the rest of this month. That has made a huge difference to households, not just in my electorate, but across Australia. And we're proud to support that, just as we are proud that as of today, that first tax bracket is now down to 15 per cent. It was 19 per cent of every dollar that people earned in that tax bracket, going into the pocket of the government. Now it's down to just 15 per cent. That is a huge change - 15 cents on the dollar.

MELLET: We were talking yesterday with one of our money men and I think he was saying it's about $5 a week. Is that right?

GORMAN: What it is, cumulatively, with all of the tax relief that we've put in our budgets over the four years we've been in office, it saves the average worker $2,800 a year. So, that's really meaningful for households in my electorate. And it comes along with the work we've done to get wages up. For the first time as of today, for minimum wage workers in Western Australia, the minimum wage for a full week's work is above $1,000. It's $1,004. I'm really proud that we've done a lot of work to lift wages up. At the same time we're bringing taxes down, and for average workers, that's putting a lot of money in their pocket and there's more to do. I don't want to say that we don't want to get wages continuing to move over time and we’ve got more work to do on bringing taxes down. But we've been doing the work and it's making a difference.

MELLET: Well, Dean, over to you. You also know very well how people are hurting, dealing with the cost-of-living pressures. So, are the paid parental changes and the tax cuts the necessary relief that you also support?

SMITH: Well, I think whenever the Government wants to talk about cost-of-living, it's an excuse to not talk about inflationary pressures in the economy. So, in Western Australia – and I've mentioned this previously on this show – that we know that average weekly earnings have risen by about 18 per cent. But the CPI costs for WA families have grown by 27 per cent. So, these things need to be seen in the cumulative. Inflation is the most important and urgent economic challenge that Australia faces. The question for Patrick, and Jim Chalmers and others, is why are they resisting the urgent need to get inflation back under control. So, for the life of this Government, the inflation rate has sat outside the RBA's preferred range of 2 to 3 per cent. What that means is that there's pressure on interest rates. So, the RBA is forced to push up interest rates. That affects the disposable income of Western Australian families. So, we would say that the priority, the economic challenge at the moment that must be addressed is the inflationary challenge. And if the Government is going to continue to spend at record levels, that is going to drive inflation up and drive interest rates and cause more financial stress for Western Australian families.

MELLET: And if you were in office with these cost-of-living pressures, would you be able to resist making changes like these?

SMITH: Well, I think what's important here is how – what is the first principle that you adopt when you seek to make changes in regards to government spending? And I think the fuel excise that you raised with Patrick in the first instance is a very, very good example of this. Angus has made it – Angus Taylor has made it very, very clear that when the Coalition is bringing forward new spending initiatives, it will be necessary to find offsets—

GORMAN: Cuts. 

SMITH: —in government spending as a result, as a way of reducing the inflationary pressures. If you are only spending more money and this Government is spending $16,000 per person more than the Government did when it came to government. That is inflationary. So, it actually doesn't matter, Geraldine, how much cost-of-living pressures, relief you give to families or in what form you give it to families. If you are increasing the size of government spending, you are in the end making it more difficult for them because of the inflationary experiences. And the RBA released the minutes of the most recent RBA meeting just yesterday, and they made it very, very clear that interest rates will continue to rise unless inflation is tackled in the economy.

MELLET: Fourteen minutes to four, and you're listening to our two – I was going to say contestants. Sorry. Our two politicians behind party lines who are sitting very peacefully together in the Canberra studios. Patrick Gorman, Labor MP and Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister and Senator Dean Smith, WA Liberal and Shadow Assistant Treasurer. Just had a question from Michael on the SMS line. “Have you ever advocated for a pay rise for workers on the minimum wage?” And I gather that was to you, Senator Smith.

SMITH: Have I ever advocated for – well, we would support improvements to minimum wages for workers, because that's a fair thing to do. Have I personally, I don't think I have. Not in the positions that I've had, nor in the roles that I had when I was a parliamentarian. No, that's not true. But as someone who had various part-time jobs when I was a young person before. While I was at university, various jobs before I came to Parliament. I understand how important it is for people to get a fair day's wage for a fair day's work. Absolutely.

GORMAN: Michael, if I can just say to you, the Labor Party does advocate for increasing the minimum wage. We actually put in a submission to the Fair Work Commission who are looking at this. Our submission, and every submission we've put in for four years, said that we support a real wage increase for those on the minimum wage. And then for other workers in areas where we know there's been historical underpayment, we have put in additional funds to help people who work in the childcare centres across Western Australia, or indeed in aged care across Western Australia. We've put in additional funds to make sure that they get a fair day's pay and to help with the huge challenges we had with workforce. Now, when earlier Dean talked about finding savings in the Budget, these are the sorts of things that - maybe not Dean himself, but many of his colleagues hate – 

SMITH: NDIS reforms, which we agree with, Patrick. We agree with NDIS reforms.

GORMAN: Well then vote for them in the Senate.

SMITH: You've just extended the committee reporting period. So, we have said we will work constructively with the Federal Government on NDIS reforms, while at the same time wanting to make sure that people with genuine disability needs get properly supported in the community. There's very, very clear expectation from Australians that that happens. But I use – but the NDIS reforms that we as first principle both agree with, right, is a demonstration that there can be sensible savings found in the Budget. If you are saying to WA listeners now that every cent of Commonwealth money that is spent is spent wisely, well then that is just not true. The challenge for Labor – why do wage increases matter if they're only going to be eaten by inflation? Inflation is Labor's invisible tax. This is the economic priority because everyone is feeling the cost-of-living pressures. You recognise that yourself by providing cost-of-living relief. But that relief is not going to make life easier for people unless the Government tackles the inflationary demon.

GORMAN: And if I can just say on that, Dean. One of the things that you miss in that story is – I know you're a student of history, but let's just go to some modern history. This Labor Government under Treasurer Chalmers has delivered two surpluses. Now, those surpluses weren't in the forward estimates when your colleagues left office. We did the hard work on finding savings and responsible spending – 

SMITH: The cumulative impact of Labor's Budgets is we now have government spending at a 40 year high outside the recession and outside the pandemic. That is a historical fact and it's demonstrated in the tables in the Budget. In addition to that, the tax revenue that this Government is taking from Australian families and businesses is the highest it has ever been as well, so – but that doesn't disguise the real issue, Patrick. And that is what will you do – 

GORMAN: I would have thought you remembered the Howard Government being – 

MELLET: Gentlemen, I've got a few questions to put to you. So, I just might move on if you don't mind, and also flag that I will come back to the NDIS for sure. Ten minutes to four and if you'd like to ask a question, phone us on 1300 221 025 and you can go and put it directly to Patrick Gorman or to Senator Dean Smith. There were a couple of things – one was just a comment from Victoria who said: “The minimum wage is over $1,000 a week. I'm a teacher in my seventh year of teaching. I have $54,000 HECS debt. I earn $1,500 a week for nine hour days plus after hours work. It almost doesn't seem worth bothering.” No question in there, but there is one in the next one from John: “Why don't either of you address the $17 billion elephant in the room? A fair and reasonable 25 per cent tax on gas exports.”

GORMAN: John, what you might have seen in the Budget that we released in May was that we've looked at the really good work that Western Australia has done, that was started under Alan Carpenter some 20 years ago, which was about having a domestic gas reservation policy. We see that the best benefits we can get for the Australian people is to make sure there is enough gas for domestic electricity production, but also for domestic industry. Because we know that we want to have a future made in Australia where people can get those good advanced manufacturing jobs, and some of those do rely upon gas feedstock. So, that's the path we've gone down and that will take the good idea that Western Australia's benefited from, that you and I, John, have benefited from for some 20 years, and take that into a national scheme. We think that's a good idea. We think that we can get that done in this term of Parliament and in doing that - and I would note that Madeleine King, who would normally be on this panel, is the one who does a lot of that work. And a huge shout out for Madeleine, taking another great Western Australian idea and moving it into the national sphere. But we see that that's the smart way to get the best value for Australia out of our gas resources that belong to the Australian people. These resources belong, John, to you and I, and we want to get the best value out of them. That means backing our energy grids. Backing WA jobs, and making sure that there's a big Australian benefit for any of these multinationals who are using our gas resources.

SMITH: I'm sorry to say, Geraldine, that I disagree with John in the strongest possible terms. This idea of imposing a 25 per cent tax on gas exports is very, very damaging to Western Australia. Very, very damaging to our energy security, damaging to our relationships at a time when our geo-political tensions are at a level that we haven't seen before. It is ill-advised and it's been a key campaign focus of Independents and the Greens, and when they do go and campaign on this, unfortunately, they are telling half the story. The other half of the story, which is very, very important, which they don't talk about, is what we call the PRRT. The Petroleum Resource Rent Tax is a mechanism that currently exists that does two things. Generates revenue from gas production but, and critically but, allows for the development of gas projects, particularly at sea, where the risk of exploration, discovering nothing is very, very high. And the capital infrastructure costs are significant because you're drilling in areas far off the coast, much deeper waters. So, the risk of these – the capital risks associated with these projects are very, very severe. So, I disagree with John in the strongest terms. There is alternative mechanisms to make sure people are getting a fair share. And to be fair to this and to the other government, the PRRT arrangements are regularly, sort of, recalibrated to make sure that Australians are getting a fair return.

MELLET: There was a text from Steve saying: “The gas suppliers are not meeting their obligations.” So, it was just one simple statement. Let's go to Mirian from Highgate, who has a question for you now. Thanks for joining us, Mirian.

CALLER: Hi, Geri. Patrick, my name is Mirian and I am within your Perth electorate. I wanted to talk about the newly introduced $5,000 Allied Health cap for veterans. I think that in combination with the changes to the NDIS, are really unnecessarily cruel for a group of Labor people who are governing under the auspices of caring for each other and looking out for the vulnerable. I mean, I personally do a lot of advocacy and work with DVA, for a good friend of mine who's turned 81, an ex-Battle of Long Tan veteran, and the amount of care and medical need that they need should not have a cap, given that their whole lives have been utterly destroyed by their service. I mean, he had no issues with fighting because of wanting to be there. He was conscripted. And I also know Graeme Edwards and of course you'd know him too, great Labor luminary. And I think he'd be really disgusted with what's happened given his advocacy of Veterans' Affairs. I just think this is unnecessary cruelty for a group of people that don't really take up much of the revenue stream here. What have you got to say? And I'd also like to hear what Dean has got to say from his side as to how they'd be supporting veterans.

GORMAN: Mirian, firstly, thank you for calling in and advocating for our veteran community and thank you for the work that you do. And thank you to your friend who served our nation, even if it wasn't their choice. Obviously did so with distinction and pride. The changes that we have made, and some of them kick into effect today with the new Veterans and Families Wellbeing Agency that's been set up by my Western Australian colleague, Matt Keogh. These changes come about because of recommendations that we've had out of the Royal Commission into Veteran Suicide. So, these are initiatives that we have taken from that Royal Commission where veterans and their families were so brave in giving their lived experience and told us what wasn't working in the current system and what we needed to change. Now, my understanding of these caps is that they are a general cap, and that where there are specific additional needs for a particular veteran, there are mechanisms to get additional support. So, I say that because it's really important that any veteran who's listening to this program, if they see that they're not getting the exact supports that they need, that they talk to the Department of Veterans Affairs and go through the mechanisms that are already there to make sure that they're getting the supports they need. Because that's been our whole focus. That's why we had the Royal Commission, it's why we've responded to the Royal Commission. We've had many pieces of legislation go through the Parliament with the support of the veteran community to make sure that we get this right, to make sure that we do better than generations before us when it comes to supporting our veterans.

SMITH: Mirian, thanks for your call. I'm the son of a Vietnam veteran. My father served in 7RAR in Vietnam in 67, 68. And of course, this is the 60th anniversary next month. I think August 16th is when we're having the commemorative event in Perth of the Battle of Long Tan. So, I'm hypersensitive to the issues of veterans welfare. I think the view of Australians would be that everything should be done to support the welfare of veterans. I'll be meeting with some veterans groups in coming weeks to talk specifically about this issue, the detail of which I'll have to be honest with you, I'm not across. But we're about to go into a parliamentary recess, so I'll make this a key priority of mine. Happy to reach out to talk to you about it, but I think the Australian community would agree that support for veterans, and of course we've got modern veterans, those who've served in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places. You know, I think Australians would absolutely expect that the highest level of care and support can be provided to our veteran community and the people that support them.

MELLET: Thank you very much. We've got a whole lot of raft of other questions and I did want to get into the NDIS, but we have no time. We've run out of time because you've given some fulsome answers there and I thank you for it. So, next time I think we'll flag that we'll talk about NDIS issues because it is such a huge and important topic. Thank you both for your time today.

GORMAN: Thank you very much.

SMITH: Thank you, Geraldine.