Radio interview - ABC Perth Drive

OLIVER PETERSON, HOST: And in the red corner, the Labor MP for Perth, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister and of the Public Service, Patrick Gorman. Good afternoon.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Good afternoon, Oly. And good afternoon to your listeners.

PETERSON: And in the blue corner, the Liberal MP for Forrest. Ben Small. Good afternoon. 

BEN SMALL, SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE: G'day Oly, how are you? 

PETERSON: I'm alright. Did you get elevated in the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle as well? Have you got a title Ben, or is just Liberal MP?

SMALL: Yeah, Shadow Assistant Minister for Infrastructure and Electoral Affairs. But first and foremost, the Member for Forrest, mate. 

PETERSON: Okay, good to know. If you want to join the conversation 1300 221 025. Start with the NDIS announcements today - 160,000 people, Patrick, have to be cut off the NDIS within a couple of years time. That's a big task.

GORMAN: We don't underestimate the level of reform that is needed, but as the Minister clearly outlined today at the National Press Club, we need to change this scheme to make sure it's sustainable for the long run. Now, our goal is - at the moment, what we're seeing is growth in the NDIS that would see some 900,000 Australians on the scheme by the end of this decade. We know that, through sensible changes, we can reduce that down to about 600,000 by the end of this decade. The Minister outlined very clearly the consultation that will occur, but also the necessity of doing this. It cannot continue in the way that it has been for the last 13 years.

PETERSON: Obviously, the Opposition's only been digesting what Mark Butler's had to say at the Press Club today, Ben. But on the surface, is he getting the Liberal Party support?

SMALL: It was a day of reckoning, Oly. Because in the run up to the 2022 election, the then Minister Bill Shorten was telling Australians that the sustainability of the NDIS was beyond question, and anyone that said otherwise was lying. And here we are, four years later, with the Labor Party today unveiling huge changes to the NDIS. Now we will, of course, support changes that ultimately lead to a sustainable scheme delivering for those most vulnerable Australians. But what we have is real concerns about the Labor Party's ability to actually administer these reforms. I mean, months ago, they announced Thriving Kids, and with a notional start date of 1 July, we're marching up on that, still no progress. So this is a big, glossy announcement, but as always, the challenge is actually delivering.

PETERSON: Has it been set up incorrectly, Patrick?

GORMAN: Look, I think the National Disability Insurance Scheme was set up for the right reasons, and it speaks to our Australian values, and even after these changes it'll be the largest social spending programme in Australia, other than the Age Pension. It is right that we make sure there are person-centred supports for people with disability. I was actually at the launch and the official start of the NDIS back in 2013, and what I know is that what we expected then in terms of the growth is not what the Australian people have seen since. We have an important responsibility as the Australian Government to make sure the scheme is sustainable for the long term. We have been really upfront with the Australian people about the need to make these changes, and also to get some of the fraud out of the system. That's been the other challenge that—I mean, I was shocked when I came to government. Ben just talked about coming to government in 2022. I was shocked at the amount of fraud, the fact that there were invoices being paid where there was no checks and balances, that basically anyone could set up a provider and have no checks on whether they were providing the services. Some of that stuff has to stop, and it has to stop in the next few years. It can't continue. And you know, of course, we would like to get on top of some of those things earlier, but the Scheme, as it was when we inherited it back in 2022, was unsustainable, and we've always been upfront about that.

PETERSON: 1300 221 025, Behind Party Lines. Patrick Gorman, the Labor MP for Perth. Ben Small, the Liberal MP for Forrest. Now, lots of people have been contacting us since the start of the show. Been disappointed with Mark Butler's decision to wind back the over-65 private health rebate. We had a chat to National Seniors Australia's Chris Grice, who also believes it may be short sighted, and put people back into the public health system and put pressure on our public hospitals. Has the Government made an error here? 

SMALL: Look, I think we've always been a big supporter of private health on the Coalition side of politics. And while we're digesting the details here, it seems like the Labor Party have missed the real low hanging fruit here, and there are estimates of some 20% of the total cost the NDIS is going to organised crime and fraud. So why aren't we changing the payment system to be questions first and then money? Because at the moment, it's money first and questions later. If someone is unlucky - 

GORMAN: That is the system you left when you were last in Government -  

SMALL: So, we've actually caught this Government, and we were working on it towards the end of the last Coalition Government. Was one of the first things thrown overboard by the then Minister Shorten. So, it's a bit rich for Pat here to be saying, four years into the Albanese Government, after they've been shovelling an increasing number of billions of dollars every year into this scheme, that all of a sudden they found a few skeletons in the closet. So I think, honestly, that is the most obvious and glaring omission from today's announcement, and that's what we've been calling for. We will work with the Government, by the way, to ensure that those financial safeguards are part of this package going forward. 

PETERSON: So almost 68,000 people in WA, Patrick, benefit from the NDIS. Do you know how many of those 160,000 participants would be cut here from WA? 

GORMAN: What the Minister said really clearly is that there will be new assessments for those who are currently in the scheme that will happen over a period of time. It's not happening in the next few months, but there will be work starting with both providers and participants in the scheme to make sure that we can get the supports to those who need that type of support. And again, we talked about Thriving Kids earlier. There are some people who will get better support through other mechanisms, other than the NDIS.

SMALL: Sure, but when is Thriving Kids starting?

PETERSON: But we should expect also hundreds of people be moved off the NDIS?

GORMAN: Well, we want to make sure it's there for those who need it and need that type of support, and where there are people who can have other types of supports, such as supports for young children in primary school who might have some form of developmental delay, but will be able to get a better set of supports on their school campus through local supports, rather than jumping in a car two or three times a week to go off to specialist appointments. If we can make a better system, we should; that's what anyone would expect of us.

PETERSON: Should it have been left to the states? I mean, this was something Colin Barnett was talking about when he was Premier of Western Australia. Did the Commonwealth ultimately, the Commonwealth Government ultimately, complicate the system?

GORMAN: Look, if you look at the decisions that State Governments and Territory Governments have made over time, we have all come to the same conclusion. A nationally consistent scheme, where people are at the centre, is the right type of scheme, but there's been real openness that there have been surprises. And I've heard Coalition Ministers in the past talk about this, I'll say it as well. At times, some of the supports that were there in the states and territories were withdrawn, where it meant that people were falling through the gaps and they were going to the NDIS as the only source of support.

PETERSON: Patrick Gorman, Ben Small with me right now. This is Behind Party Lines. 1300 221 025. And after, for today, we want to check in on the rental market, because it's been a little while. And look, you might be a renter, or loved ones of yours may be renters or are staying at home longer into their adult lives. What's the state of play in the residential rental market right now? Get in contact, and we'll have that discussion after four o'clock. Gordon has phoned through and wants to have a chat to Ben and to Patrick. Good afternoon to you.

CALLER: Good afternoon, Oly. Good afternoon, Ministers. Look, I'm going to keep this very brief. When I was a young child in the 70s, my parents, other elders and adults used to complain about politicians. I used to say, “What a joke” - okay, not about the politicians, about my adults. I then grew up. I'm now 64, and I don't see what's happened. Both parties have had a monopoly on our democracy in this country. We are the best multicultural country in this world. Australia is the best place you could ever live in this world. What I want to say to you, both of you, both parties, is that you need to start working together instead of blaming each other constantly. The nation has had enough of the blame. Start doing things. You know, when it comes to things like homeless people and high rents - well, Bill Shorten tried to do something about that, and the Opposition just cut him down. They used fear to scare the voters.

PETERSON: All right, Gordon, we might get into some of those issues in a moment, but are you looking for a third Coalition partner, Ben? Might take on the Labor Party with the Nationals and the Libs?

SMALL: No, we're very happy with the current arrangements and taking it up to the current Government. But look, can I just say that, you know, we're about protecting Australians and restoring their standard of living, because I hear those concerns everywhere I go at the moment. So that's why we've started to unveil some sensible policy announcements, like on migration, because our judgement is that the numbers have been too high and the standards have been too low. That's feeding into things like the housing crisis and the fact that, for young Australians, the dream of home ownership has become a nightmare. So I would say to all of your listeners, we are prepared to work with the Government constructively wherever we can, and that includes on things like today's NDIS announcements. By the way, there'll be a great deal of agreement between the parties about which elements of this package ultimately go through the party, through the Parliament, and indeed, we've come with some constructive suggestions of our own. So I think, for those listeners out there, let me assure you that politics is like an iceberg. You only see the 5% on TV and in newspapers and the like, but, you know, 95% of it is behind closed doors and very collegiate.

PETERSON: All right, Patrick. Do you acknowledge that the debate could be more productive if you found more common ground rather than division?

GORMAN: Well, Gordon, firstly, you're clearly a proud Australian, and you clearly love this country. And I am a proud Australian, and I love this country. Ultimately, the only people who have a monopoly on democracy are the Australian voters, and one of the things they expect us to do in our parliamentary system is to hold each other's proposals up to good scrutiny. Now, I've served in Opposition and I've served in Government, and I recognise that when you're in Opposition, your job is to hold the Government to account, and I respect when Ben and his colleagues do that. That's an essential part of our democracy, just as is the job of Government to put forward propositions and then make the case for them in public every day. Now, I'll finish that with a compliment. Ben, I'm a huge fan of your electorate. I love Bunbury, but I want you to know that. I really enjoy going to Bunbury. I enjoy it so much, we even convinced the Prime Minister to go down there last year for a Cabinet meeting. You've got a wonderful part of the world, and I'm sure it is an honour to represent the people of Bunbury and Forrest in the national Parliament.

SMALL: I don't know who was more surprised on his morning walk down the Busselton Jetty - the Prime Minister, or me, when we bumped into each other, quite unexpectedly.

PETERSON: You spent a bit of time in Patrick's - I mean, you're in Patrick's seat now. You're in Perth. 

SMALL: I'm up for Jimmy Carr tonight. There's no ulterior motive here.

GORMAN: Ben, have you got a joke for us? 

SMALL: Nothing as good as he's got.

PETERSON: 1300 221 025. Now, over 2,000 housing construction apprentices have taken advantage of the $10,000 incentive here in WA. Is that going to start making a real dent, though? Patrick.

GORMAN: Yes, it is. Because one of the things we've had in Australia is massive skill shortages, and we haven't had enough investment in building up our own skills base. And this is exactly what people have been calling out for for years, which is to invest in building up skills and giving opportunities for young apprentices. I was out in Joondalup just an hour ago with Andrew Giles and Amber-Jade Sanderson, launching a new programme called Big Sister. Now, Big Sister is about getting more women into the electrical trades. All of these things are about going, hang on, we're a big country. We've got a lot of people who want those good, secure, well-paid jobs, and we're trying to make sure we open those doors as wide as possible to give them to people.

PETERSON: Have you set a target for that Big Sister campaign?

GORMAN: Their goal, as they say, is they want to engage with about 900 young Western Australian women, I think that's over the next two years, to talk about what the opportunities are. And the young people we're talking to today are doing their pre-apprenticeships while they're still in high school. So I spoke to one young person who's going to graduate high school with a Certificate II in electrical work, and then can go on and shave months off their apprenticeship. So these things are making a real difference right now. There's more to do. I will not say mission accomplished when it comes to the serious skill shortages we've got in Australia, and particularly here in the West, but these investments are making a difference.

PETERSON: Well, we've been a popular place throughout the week for visits from some of our federal colleagues. Ben, you've had your leader, Angus Taylor, in town, obviously campaigning on the dig-and-drill philosophy and why it takes eight months to agree to have what - a one-stop shop to get some of these projects off the ground, or out of the ground.

SMALL: Yeah. I mean, Oly, this is the madness, right? Some 22% of jobs in South West WA are directly dependent on mining. And that's not what we think of when you, you know, imagine BHP, Rio, and the red dust of the Pilbara. But when mining does well, all of us do well, and that's why we want to see an Australia where we get on, we dig, drill, and we pay down the debt bill. Now that impacts communities like mine, and it was important to have Angus come and see that firsthand. We visited a family-owned trucking business with a fleet of road trains operating across Western Australia, using 120,000 litres of diesel a day. And I mean, this is the scale of these sorts of businesses that need government out of the way so they can get on and do what they do best. And that's why, to me, it just seems extraordinary that the government's much-heralded reforms, the EPBC Act that proposed a one-stop shop for environmental approvals, which is an important reform, one that we support, but I just can't understand why, four months after the passage of that legislation, we get a glossy announcement that there's going to be another eight months of talking before we've got any hope of that one-stop shop getting these projects through the government bureaucracy and underway.

GORMAN: Well, if Ben had his way, those laws wouldn't have even passed the Australian Parliament. So we would have had no reform. We would have been stuck with John Howard's laws from the 1990's. Our laws, which - yes, we passed at the end of last year, with no help from Angus Taylor or any of your colleagues, Ben - those laws will make a difference. They will speed up approvals, and they'll speed up housing approvals as well. They'll speed up approvals for renewable projects and for wind projects. And one of the things I thought was amazing is that Ben had Angus Taylor down in his electorate saying he opposed new energy projects. There's a big new wind energy project that wants to get going in your electorate, and you're opposing it absolutely. 

SMALL: Absolutely. We got a dirty deal between Labor - 

GORMAN: But you will get more energy. More energy into our grid - 

SMALL: and the Greens at the end of the last year that chopped out oil and gas projects from being eligible for a national infrastructure acceleration -

GORMAN: You guys walked away. You gave up. You said it was too hard - 

SMALL: So this is absolute rank hypocrisy from Labor, who, just months after doing that dirty deal with the Greens, had their Energy Minister saying, at the onset of this fuel crisis, there's literally not one country in the world that wants more fossil fuels, just days before Albo jumps on his jet and flies around Southeast Asia with his begging bowl out for fossil fuels. I mean, we want to dig, drill, and pay down that bill, because we're not worried about 30 days of supply. Oly, we want to see 30 years of supply in this state, and that means exploiting the hydrocarbons that we have in the ground and under our sea floor right here in WA.

PETERSON: So, is this going to be a debate moving forward? Our sovereign capability and actually, once again, being able to - 

SMALL: Of course it is. Because we want to emerge from this crisis. And both sides of politics have to admit that there have been mistakes in the past. I mean - 

GORMAN: Like when Angus Taylor was the Minister that saw the BP refinery in Kwinana shut? That was a mistake.

SMALL: Or the same Minister who introduced the minimum - 

GORMAN: Did he say sorry while he was here? -

SMALL: -stockholding obligations that you guys want to claim credit for. But let's not be cheap about this, Patrick. At the end of the day, our obligation, I think, is that Australian resources are exploited for the benefit of Australians. And that means we put the madness of offshore wind in Geographe Bay - which is three times more expensive than onshore wind by the CSIRO's own numbers. These are the Government's numbers, not mine. So let's put expensive power to one side. Let's put affordability at the core of our energy policy. Let's dig, drill, and pay down that debt bill.

PETERSON: All right, the clock is going to beat us today, gentlemen, as you're just warming up. I appreciate your time here on Behind Party Lines. Thank you. 

GORMAN: Thank you, Oly.

SMALL: Thanks Oly. 

ENDS