Interview with Patricia Karvelas - ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: I want to bring in my political panel for this Monday. Patrick Gorman is the Assistant Employment Minister. Ben Small is the Shadow Assistant Infrastructure Minister and they're both my guests. Welcome to the program.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Thank you, Patricia.

BEN SMALL, MEMBER FOR FORREST: Thank you, PK. 

KARVELAS: We're going to start on some of the ideas that are coming out of this UK trip, and Pauline Hanson doubling down on a couple of them. I'll start with you, Garth Hamilton. Mass deportations, she says she supports, and Barnaby Joyce has backed that idea. Is that doable?

SMALL: I think it's me you’re talking to PK. Garth’s probably sunning himself in Queensland somewhere. But look, I think this demonstrates to me why One Nation are not fit to govern. They're a party of grievance rather than a party of government, because we've put forward what I think is a common sense, straightforward approach to managing migration. We want people coming to Australia who believe in our values. And that's why I want to make the Australian values statement a compulsory part of Australia's migration program. And as well as maintaining those high standards, we want to control the number of people coming to Australia. That builds on decades of us being successful migrant nation who's welcomed many people from all creeds, to come to Australia and to build the country into what it is today. So, no, I don't support in any way or agree with what Pauline has said from Europe, certainly where I am here in Western Australia, that's not what people are talking to me about.

KARVELAS: No, they're not calling for mass deportations?

SMALL: No. There are some 77,000 people in Australia who have no lawful right to be here. They have exhausted every avenue of appeal. And as a Coalition policy position, we have been very clear that we would seek to expedite their removal from Australia. That's what you would expect from the Liberal Party, which has a proud history of strong border control in government. But that is not, I don't think, what Pauline's talking about in copying some sort of ICE style raids in the US, where we've got armed, you know, law enforcement officers dragging people out of their homes and workplaces. So, there is a clear difference. But again, it seems that Pauline Hanson's caught up in a MAGA style US parody, whereas we're here doing the hard work to develop the sensible policy that Australians would expect from their alternative government.

KARVELAS: Patrick Gorman, on some of the things that we've seen come out of this trip. Pauline Hanson was also pressed on Tommy Robinson and that interview because of course, it's been controversial that she even talked to him, given his record – his criminal record – she doubled down. She said she doesn't regret that. Is that acceptable? Does it matter that she wants to talk to him?

GORMAN: Well, I think it goes to Senator Hanson's judgement. And what we've seen on this trip where she has hung out with criminals and billionaires, is that she has terrible judgement. I don't think most Australians would see it to be in any way acceptable to sit down with someone like that. And I did see there were some in One Nation trying to blame it on media outlets. I would have thought if you're someone who has been in Australian political life for 30 years, you would take responsibility for your own actions. And that is what I expect from One Nation. But I would also just having heard the criticism from Ben just then, I think it is extraordinary that if that's what Ben Small and his Liberal colleagues think about One Nation, that they're still inking preference deals – they inked a preference deal with One Nation here in Western Australia just last week. But why are they preferencing and encouraging One Nation, when you see the sorts of terrible judgement that their leadership are making?

KARVELAS: Well, Ben Small, I'll ask you, are you inking preference deals with One Nation? And does some of the rhetoric you're hearing alarm you?

SMALL: Well, I think there's two questions there, PK, and the first is that in relation to – 

KARVELAS: There are two. 

SMALL: Sorry, what was that?

KARVELAS: I made a joke. Yes, I asked two questions at once.

SMALL: Let me deal with it. So, there's two issues here. One is in a state by-election here in Western Australia and the Liberal Party are running in that to win. Our candidate has put himself forward as a submariner, former veteran of the Australian Defence Force, who lives just a few kilometres jogging distance outside the electorate – 

GORMAN: Desperate for One Nation preferences. 

KARVELAS: Let him finish. Let him finish. 

SMALL: As a clear [INAUDIBLE] for the Liberal Party to win. The Labor Party candidate lives in Perth, in the CBD, some 60 kilometres away. So, frankly, I'm not interested in, you know, Patrick's criticisms of who we put ahead of whom. We are seeking to get the most number of number one votes in the Liberal box. Whether that be in the state by-election to Secret Harbour or indeed come the next federal election, because we believe we have a compelling case for change.

KARVELAS: Ok, Patrick Gorman. I heard a bit of heckling there. No heckling on this show. I'm going to try and control some heckling. I want to talk about artificial intelligence because we talk a lot about many issues, but nothing will be more substantial to people's lives than the changes with artificial intelligence. Last week, Patrick Gorman, I spoke with Sally McManus and she said the unions weren't pushing for a veto. However, they would push for changes to the laws if there were consequences from AI being pulled – you know, basically implemented in workplaces that led to lots of workers losing their jobs. Do you support more union say, workers' say, in the roll out of AI in Australian workplaces?

GORMAN: Well, I expect that responsible employers, when they are doing significant change in their workplaces, and in some workplaces, AI will mean significant change. They do consult with their workforce, they do talk through what are the opportunities. We had a piece of work that was put out by the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations just over a week ago that said that we're not seeing major labour market disruption at this point in time when it comes to artificial intelligence. But we watch these items closely. And I would also note that Minister Amanda Rishworth has convened forums to make sure that we have employers and employees talking about how do we manage this big change? Because it is going to change, not just how we work, but how we live. It is a massive increase in computing power. And so, what the Prime Minister and all the Ministers in our government want is to make sure that we get it right.

KARVELAS: Ben Small, isn't it fair enough that workers have a say over something that could absolutely transform and change their jobs?

SMALL: Look, in a broad sense, Patricia, I do agree with that, and consultation is a feature of all Australian workplaces, I'd argue, but I'd encourage your viewers to use AI for a little experiment. Whether you use ChatGPT or Claude or something else. Grab the two transcripts of recent speeches given on AI, Andrew Hastie's Tom Hughes Oration, and of course, Prime Minister Albanese. And get AI to do a little comparison for you, because it is telling. The Coalition's approach to AI isn't dictated by our union paymasters. It's built on a platform of national sovereignty. We've seen the US withhold access to certain AI models, like Claude's fable, with the click of a button. So, this idea that we need to be sovereign as a nation state in a world that is changing due to AI is really, really important. And that's where things like our commitment to dumping Net Zero and lifting the moratorium on nuclear power are essential. Because without the capacity for cheap and reliable power, frankly, the idea that we will be competitive in the AI space is just a fantasy. I thought it was telling that the Prime Minister used the NBN, which is approaching some $70 billion in expenditure now, as a great example of how Australia can do this better than anyone else. I mean, anyone that's used Starlink in recent years knows that technology and the pace at which it is disrupting the way that we operate is increasing. So, I wouldn't be quoting the NBN, I wouldn't be dictated to by the ACTU. I think we need to put our national sovereignty at the core of our approach to AI.

KARVELAS: Okay, I'll give you a right of reply to that, Patrick Gorman. Particularly on the energy aspect, because a little earlier I also had Dan Tehan on the show saying that your whole plan around energy being generated for these new data centres should be all renewables. That's what he claims.

GORMAN: What we expect is that those who are proposing new large data centres come with a plan for making sure they've got reliable energy and that they also chip something back into the community. That they make sure there's a bit of extra energy in the grids of Australia. That is pretty practical. That is in our national interest to make sure that people aren't just choosing a plot of land, but they're actually making sure they've thought through all of the energy requirements – 

KARVELAS: Is it just renewables though? I mean, can gas be used?

GORMAN: I will take the example – there is actually a data centre in my electorate, inner-city of Perth, that has on top of it a gas generator. So, they have got their own independent energy if there's an outage. But they also contribute back into the grid with peaking support and that's about firming up to make sure we can have more renewables.

Now I expect over time, given that renewables are the cheapest form of energy and often the fastest to deploy, that that will be the choice that most data centre operators will make. And it also means that they can, if they are co-developing, they can sell some of that energy back into the grids.

I think this argument that Ben and his colleagues keep trying to take us back to about whether or not renewables are cheap. They are. And whether or not renewables work. They do. It is just a silly argument. Renewables are an important part and a growing part of our energy grids here in the west and on the east coast as well.

KARVELAS: I'm going to ask you a question just before we end the show. Labor Conference is coming up of course, starts Thursday this week. So, Patrick what do you make of some of the speculation that Labor will support a bigger tax on gas?

GORMAN: Oh, look, I know I've been to many Labor Party National Conferences and I thoroughly enjoy it because we are Australia's biggest and most democratic party and we do it as you just said, you'll be there – we welcome people to our National Conference and it's done in front of the media, you know, the Greens [INAUDIBLE] – 

KARVELAS: Okay. So, we’ll watch. But do you support a bigger tax on gas?

GORMAN: Well, I support the measures that our government is currently implementing, which has been to deal with some of the tax avoidance issues we've seen from a range of large companies in the past and the work we're currently doing to make sure we have a gas reservation policy, nationally – 

KARVELAS: Ok, that's your current policy – 

GORMAN: That is the policy I support. 

KARVELAS: But it looks like your rank and file is kind of trying to push, particularly some of the unions, for a bigger gas tax.

GORMAN: And we have got 400 delegates at our national conference. They will all come with a range of ideas. We will discuss that through. There will be a range of discussions about everything from tax policy, energy policy, environment policy – 

SMALL: My money's on the unions getting their way PK. 

GORMAN: I am really comfortable about having a democratic party where we embrace our democracy. And I just note that it's not something that the Greens or even the new Teal party – that's all done behind closed doors.

KARVELAS: Alright, well, that's a different thing. That's a democracy question. The actual substance, though, you didn't quite answer, but I'll let you get away with it just today. Then I'll give you the final word. What's wrong with Labor supporting a bigger gas tax? If you look at the public polling, Australians want, what they describe as a bigger share, of the benefits from our gas.

SMALL: There's been a pretty shameless campaign by the Australia Institute, the Senator for Canberra, David Pocock and others, to spread basically misinformation on how much of a contribution that the oil and gas industry makes to Australia and to our economic activity. So, we are confident that where you stand behind consistent and standard taxation settings that deliver increased activity in Australia and of course, very highly paid jobs across the board that flow from that, that's an appropriate thing for a government to do. So, that's why we categorically will not support these sorts of thought bubbles from the Greens and Teals and everyone else.

KARVELAS: Thank you so much for both of you joining us. It's been a good conversation.

GORMAN: Thank you.