Podcast interview with Sacha Barbour - The Briefing

SACHA BARBOUR GATT, HOST: It was once the go-to for many young people in Australia once they’d finished up with formal schooling – heading to TAFE to get a qualification. In the late 1990s into the early 2000s, whether it was plumbing, business, early childhood or hairdressing, campuses across the country were training over a million students a year, with roughly one in 14 Australians choosing to get job-ready at the local tech. Fast forward to the 2010s, and that number was in steep decline thanks to a range of factors, including a rise in private and expensive colleges, a decade of funding cuts and campus closures, as well as a cultural shift towards universities and degrees. Lower TAFE enrolments have meant less tradespeople across Australia in recent years and a critical skills shortage, particularly in the construction sector.

As part of its election platform in the lead up to the 2022 election, Labor announced a plan to introduce Free TAFE. It officially launched in 2023, and since then has seen more than 800,000 people enrol in a course. On top of that, a program designed to incentivise both apprentices to finish their study and businesses to hire them has led to 32,000 new housing construction workers joining the field in the last 12 months. Going off all of those figures, it seems like we’re heading in the right direction. But officially, tradie numbers are still down, and the number of people becoming apprentices is as well.

So, is the government doing enough with its policies, and how will AI play into it all? Joining me to discuss is the Minister for Skills and Training, Andrew Giles. Minister, welcome to The Briefing. Let’s first start with the latest number of enrolments in TAFE. So 814,000 since 2023 is the Government’s official figure. I’m curious to hear where you’re seeing the biggest interest when it comes to course and what’s been most popular.

ANDREW GILES, MINISTER FOR SKILLS AND TRAINING: What’s been really pleasing about Free TAFE is obviously the number of enrolments, but particularly to see the meeting needs right across the economy and in our communities. So the biggest enrolment rate is in the care sector. That's been over a quarter of the enrolments, but we've also seen a really strong interest in construction courses, in digital and tech courses, in early childhood education and care and in health care too.

BARBOUR GATT: Has there been a specific push by the Government in terms of trying to attract people to those roles that are needed? I know you've had your additional policy, the Key Apprenticeship Program. But separate to that, in terms of, like, advertising or getting out into schools, has there been a real concerted effort to try and attract young people and new people wanting to take up a vocation to those at-risk sectors?

GILES: A big part of the whole concept about Free TAFE is not simply getting rid of the price barrier for a course. It's pointing people towards those courses where we know there's a good secure job at the end of it. So anything that we're putting in conjunction with the states and territories on that Free TAFE list is about a job that will give someone skills that they're interested in that will lead to a job that will make a real difference in the community, whether it's building homes for Australians or caring for our youngest or oldest Australians.

Now, in terms of the promotion, there are a few layers to this. It's really gratifying to me when I travel around the country to see posters in cafes or on buses, or on various forms of catch-up TV, highlighting the opportunities that come from Free TAFE, and I know it's something that's being highlighted in classrooms in schools as well. But another part of it is about breaking down some of those other barriers that have held people back. And I'm really pleased that the large majority, for example, of enrolments in Free TAFE have been on the part of women, that we're seeing a really strong First Nations response, and a big pick up in remote and regional Australia as well. So it’s about creating a first pathway for young people, but also breaking down other barriers and opening up opportunities to upskill and reskill for people who may have been in the workforce for a while as well.

BARBOUR GATT: Now, we know there's a skills shortage in this country. You mentioned it. It is still continuing. Another policy looking to address that is the Key Apprenticeship Program which I touched on before, which is $10,000 incentives for not only apprentices, but also businesses to hire apprentices. Tell me a little bit more about that and how it's going at the moment.

GILES: Just over 12 months ago, we launched the Key Apprenticeship Program for housing, a program that delivers at the moment a $10,000 payment to an apprentice in a relevant occupation connected to building homes for Australians, $2,000 at intervals over the life of the apprenticeship. So this is really about encouraging someone to stay in the apprenticeship when cost of living pressures might be biting, as much as getting them to start. And there’s also a payment to the employer, particularly those small businesses which are so dominant in the housing construction sector, recognising that the decision to take on an apprentice is often a challenging one, and we want to encourage people to make that decision and make their investment in the next generation of tradies. So in just 12 months, we've seen 32,000 signups and 27,000-odd businesses be connected to this. So that's something that we're really gratified by because we know that we need more skilled tradies if we're going to beat those housing goals.

BARBOUR GATT: Look, if we're to believe these figures, interest and enrolments in trades then are booming. But we've also had numbers just out from the National Centre of Vocational Education Research, which does show commencements of courses and active apprenticeships are both down in the 12 months to December 2025. How do we marry up those two numbers then, the figures from the Government, but then these numbers from the research centre?

GILES: I think the challenge here is that it all depends on what the start point from what you’re measuring is. And what we would say is let's look at the situation immediately prior to the pandemic. And what we can see is between now and then, we've got apprentice in training numbers up nearly nine per cent, and trade is double that, because decisions like the Key Apprenticeship Program are decisions that we've made to ensure that the public money that we're investing in the apprenticeship system is really focused on delivering outcomes. And with that in mind, we're also seeing trade completions go up where they're at the highest level in a decade.

We know that the apprenticeship system in Australia has been under pressure for some time, going back to around 2012 at least. We’ve made some decisions and we’ve conducted a really comprehensive review about the role the national government plays to really sharpen our focus, firstly, on those areas where an apprenticeship is the or the principal pathway towards getting your qualification, and making sure that we're doing absolutely everything not just to get someone into a trade, but to enable them to finish.

BARBOUR GATT: Let's look to the future then, because trades are among the limited occupations that aren't predicted to be impacted by AI in the near future. Do you think that fact could help drive more young Aussies to take up a skilled profession going forward? Do you think that we're in for a bit of a boom, so to speak, in the coming years?

GILES: I'm really struck by the interest, and probably the one thing I should have said in response to your last question that I didn't, and I know it was a long answer, so apologies. But if we look at the Key Apprenticeship Program in the question you asked, the December quarter of last year, so the first quarter really when we had the opportunity to have the full impact of the Key Apprenticeship Program, trade commencements were up 12 per cent compared to the previous year. So I guess I'd say again, we're seeing the investments we're making and the priorities we're setting have an impact. On the impact of AI, I think it's something that people are conscious of, people getting towards the end of their high schooling and their parents, but also mid-career workers as well. I have this very vivid recollection of chatting to a plumbing apprentice a little while ago who explained why he'd made the decision to jump across from being a Pilates instructor when he said to me very directly: I don’t think AI is digging a hole anytime soon. So I think this is something that people are really conscious of as we think about how artificial intelligence and technology more broadly are shaping jobs. People are looking for jobs that can make a contribution. I think that's really important to people choosing the trades, that sense of being able to point to a building and say, I helped build that, but also that sense of confidence that's a career that will set someone up for life.

BARBOUR GATT: Can I just say, as the wife of a tradie, I tire very quickly of my husband pointing and telling me what he's built. I don't care. But I'm very happy that he's so proud of it. I'm interested to know if the Government wants to seize on at all the AI stuff, because you've said that you've spoken to young people and they're going, ‘yeah, like, I'm considering it or I might do it.’ But have you thought about actually advertising around that space to try and drive down the skills shortage even more by saying: ‘hey, AI is not going to be able to do your plumbing for you?’

GILES: We're doing quite a bit of work on this to try and get the clearest possible picture of the impact that artificial intelligence is having on the labour market. And one of the things that's very much on my mind is making sure that we can have a really constructive conversation with young people, their parents and other workers about the reality, as best we can see it, about AI’s impact on the world of work. And for me, one of the things that I'm really focused on is thinking about artificial intelligence as changing tasks maybe more than jobs. And looking at that perspective of how lifelong learning, upskilling, reskilling, will be a part of probably all of our working lives, even for politicians, and thinking about how we can use that as a jumping-off point to engage people in the sort of career choices they are making. I also hope, by the way, that your husband will be pointing to lots and lots more houses and really annoying you as you drive through the city.

BARBOUR GATT: The ICC in Sydney is his proudest achievement. The other question I had is around the perception of the trades. So as much as the government can do this work, as much as AI might help drive an increase in interest in getting into the trades, at the end of the day, when we're speaking about traditional trades, I'm talking even like hairdressing, being on your feet all day, being a plumber, digging ditches, construction, it's long, it's hard work physically, it does a number on your body. And also, if you do want to be an apprentice, you're earning minimum wage for an extended amount of time. Does becoming a tradesperson just have a bit of an image problem in this country as well, and people are just choosing not to be paid poorly to do really hard physical work, and they're opting to go for the comforts of a uni lecture hall and an air conditioned office instead?

GILES: I think there is a big cultural question here about the things that we value. And I think that's a big job for government, but it's a whole of society question to make sure that Australians don't see vocational education or apprenticeship as plan B, but as the right plan for someone who is interested in it. And I do think the perceptions are changing. I look at the enormous interest in undertaking an electrical apprenticeship as probably the most obvious example of that. But I do think that we do need to keep talking about equal value between a vocational pathway or a university pathway and really drilling it into people. We know that slightly more than half the jobs being created in the Australian economy require a degree, a little bit less require a vocational qualification. And making sure that we're really using that as our frame of reference in schools, around kitchen tables, in barbecue conversations, I think that's absolutely important. And I think the other point to note is that I do think there is a real sense of contribution and satisfaction and great earnings that can be secured through an apprenticeship pathway into a trade skills. And while there are issues that I am very focused on, and that's the whole reason for our Key Apprenticeship Program by the way, recognising apprenticeship wages as a deterrent, I'd say two things to that. Obviously, the award is the minimum. It's not the maximum. And secondly, an apprenticeship wage is a better starting point than a HECS debt for many people.

BARBOUR GATT: Minister Andrew Giles, thanks so much for joining us on The Briefing today.

GILES: Thanks so much, Sacha.

BARBOUR GATT: That was the Minister for Skills and Training, Andrew Giles, speaking with me there.