Interview with Greg Jennett - ABC Afternoon Briefing

E&OE Transcript

GREG JENNETT, HOST: All right, as we've gone through today, there are some big changes proposed for university loans. But not only for unis, many TAFE courses and students also have a promise being made for them for next year to tease out some of the effects of the Albanese Government's announcements on vocational education, Andrew Giles is the Minister for Skills and Training, responsible for the TAFE side of things. And Andrew's with us now. Welcome back to the program, Andrew. So, you're going to legislate for 100,000 fee-free TAFEs from 2027, but you already did 100,000 in 2023, along with the states. This actually only represents more of the same. Why do you need to legislate it?

MINISTER FOR SKILLS AND TRAINING ANDREW GILES: Well, I wouldn't say more of the same, Greg. It's about recognising that fee-free TAFE has really been transforming individual lives, but also making sure that we're building the workforce that we need for a future. When we came into government, we had the worst skill shortage in 50 years, second worst right across the OECD. Having the opportunity to work with all the states and territories and offer people the opportunity to get skills they want, and our economy needs has been transformative. What we want to do is to make sure that there is certainty going forward. The places currently are funded to 2026. We want to say to the Australian community, free TAFE will be an enduring feature of the architecture of our training system.

JENNETT: Ok, how much do the targeted occupations or skill sets change? Because up to now I think the focus has been on carers, educators, construction - does that stay in perpetuity? What are the target areas?

GILES: Well, not in perpetuity. Everything we do here we do in partnership with the states and the territories and there will be some differences. I think it's fair to say, right across the country we need construction workers and fee-free TAFE has been delivering those enrolments. We do need to boost the care sector and we're seeing that come through. Technology is another area which has been incredibly important, and which will continue to be. But you'd expect over time for there to be some variation.

JENNETT: What about dropout and completion? A previous guest, Aaron Violi from the Liberal side, suggested that completions on - I think he said TAFE, but he may have meant apprenticeships running at about 13 per cent. Is that A, true, and B, does it apply to completions on fee-free TAFE places?

GILES: Yeah, look, there's been a lot of talk about this. What we need to remember here is that fee-free TAFE has been only running since January 2023. Many of the courses, most of the courses, run for a longer period of time. As we see the period in which fee-free TAFE continues, we are seeing completions tick up, we are seeing more people enrol and more people get the benefit, the qualification from that. We do know across the board, when you look at apprenticeships, we have had struggles over time with completion rates. We're investing in looking at that. We've got a great review before government, which we're considering to make sure that when people start an apprenticeship as well, they get all the support they need to complete it.

JENNETT: Okay, so on the data available since fee-free places came in, and I take your point, that's less than two years ago, you're asserting that completions are already higher if you're in that stream than if you were fully paying your way?

GILES: No, no, no. What I'm saying is people are just talking about that data set, and we need more time to get a real picture of this. But what we are see some fantastic stories. What we are seeing is people who did not have the opportunity either to start a course or to change careers having the opportunity to do that. I spoke in Parliament today about a woman who's becoming an enrolled nurse to start off with, who made it very clear that it was only fee-free TAFE that gave her that chance. It's people like that who I'm concerned about, not just the raw numbers.

JENNETT: Alright, let's talk about student loans, because there's been plenty of focus on the tertiary or the university sector graduates getting 20 per cent cheaper, typically, I think for a debt of $27,000 - that's about $5,500. What are the numbers for VET student loan holders? How many of them are going to enjoy this 20 per cent reduction?

GILES: Yeah, well, it's a different system, so it's a smaller number. Around about four or five per cent of the loan cohort is affected. But obviously for that group of people, the principles are exactly the same. And across the board, what we are saying is we know that the jobs of today and indeed the jobs of tomorrow require post school education, for some a degree, for others a trade qualification, often through TAFE. We've got to take away all of these things which are disincentivising that and putting additional pressure on young people right now.

JENNETT: Are there any courses through the TAFEs that should be paying more to offset some of these reductions that you're making here? And also, in recognition of the fact that the certificate or qualification they walk out with is highly lucrative. Puts them into a great job.

GILES: Well, of course, as you'd appreciate, the states and territories principally run the TAFEs. This is a partnership through the National Skills Agreement, or part of that partnership, which is about ensuring that we as a national government reflect our national interest in ensuring, on the one hand, that young people and indeed older people get the opportunity to get skills that they want, and on the other hand, we can match those interests to the areas that we know we have demand in the labour market for. That's what I'm focused on. Obviously, in other areas, states and territories are entirely free to make choices that they want to make about other courses.

JENNETT: All right. Why don't we just zoom out a little on the politics of this, because I'm sure you're aware of some of the accusations made by the other side today since the announcements at the weekend. Is this in any way by the Albanese Government an answer to the critique run by people like your former colleague Kim Carr, that Labor had lost touch with its blue-collar base and these sorts of announcements that you're overseeing are a deliberate attempt to reengage with them?

GILES: Well, I don't have much stake in people who have made great contributions as Kim did, I don't think their reflections reflect the party and the party room that I'm a member of. Particularly on this because, of course, fee-free TAFE under Brendan O'Connor has been something we've introduced 21 months ago. So, I don't think it could be accused of being a reaction at all. What we are doing is building on a key Labor strength. TAFE, of course, fundamentally, but our commitment to equity as well as building a flexible and adaptive workforce that meets the needs of the future economy. It's a core Labor story. It has been for a very long time. It will continue to be.

JENNETT: All right. And a quick final one, Andrew, since we're asking most anyone who crosses our path on travel arrangements. Will you be - are you choosing to maintain your Qantas Chairman's Lounge membership?

GILES: Well, Greg, I've got to say I haven't given that matter any particular thought. I haven't made any decision about removing it. I don't think I will. Individual members will make their choices. I'm much more focused on the decisions I make for Australians than issues like that.

JENNETT: Okay. You are looking fairly prescient in the way you spell out in your own declarations, upgrades, you always specifically use the word unrequested upgrades when you've received them. I'm suggesting that's prescient because, would it be helpful if members actually clarified as you do, the circumstances in which one was achieved?

GILES: I think the important thing is that people make the declarations. I don't think there's any magic to doing it, but I think it's critically important that we do make those declarations. You know, the Prime Minister has made it very clear in him conducting himself that these standards are critically important. How members do it should be a matter for them.

JENNETT: All right. Plenty more we can talk about and will in future discussions. Andrew Giles, always good to have you on the program. Welcome back.

GILES: Thanks for having me.