Interview with Ali Moore - ABC Melbourne Drive

ALI MOORE, HOST: But right now you might have heard some of our conversation yesterday around the government’s promise to cut HECS debts if it wins the next election. The education pitch by the government also includes lowering minimum repayments and lifting the income threshold if they are re-elected at next year’s federal election. The opposition has called the changes profoundly unfair, so why has the government chosen this path?

Andrew Giles is the Minister for Skills and Training. Andrew Giles, welcome to Drive.

MINISTER FOR SKILLS AND TRAINING ANDREW GILES: Great to be with you, Ali.

MOORE: First if we can look cutting the debt by 20 per cent. Does that effectively mean that all Australia will pay for some of Australia and that some, by dent of their degree, would have a higher earning power?

GILES: Well, what we’ve recognised for some time since the HECS reforms under John Dawkins in the 80s is that higher education gives a benefit to the individual and also to our nation through generating the skills that our economy needs. We’ve always sought to get that balance right. And that’s part of what this story is about while also recognising that young people in particular are bearing some of the greatest impact of the cost-of-living challenges that people are facing right now.

So I thoroughly reject that criticism of the opposition and I think they should reflect on the fact that as the Education Minister has made clear, for people like him and me who did our degrees in the 1990s, the government was paying a more significant share of the degree cost. These changes will basically take it back, the proportion between the individual and the government, to where we were at that time.

MOORE: I guess, though, it’s not just the opposition. I mean, the architect of HECS, Bruce Chapman, says this particular part of what you’ve announced is more about politics than economics.

GILES: Yeah, I don't think that’s a fair characterisation, though, of what Mr Chapman said across the board of the changes that we are making –

MOORE: No, I said this particular part.

GILES: But I just think it is worth saying that the changes that Minister Clare announced back in May around ensuring that the rate of indexation was brought back, some of the wider issues that we’ve been looking at, which really involve reflecting on the damage that was done to the higher education sector under the previous government. Big steps like putting in place an Australian Tertiary Education Commission to look at the cost of degrees as well as making sure that we see both pathways – university and the areas that I’m responsible for in the trades and TAFE – as being put on an equal footing.

MOORE: What do you think is wrong with the cost of degrees now?

GILES: Well, what we saw in the Job Ready Graduate Scheme was really, I think, a triumph of ideology over common sense to some degree. And what we’re seeing more profoundly across the system – and this is, of course, one of the reasons why I’m so proud to be supporting the extension of Free TAFE through legislation to be introduced later this year – is to make sure that we’re doing everything possible to ensure that Australians, young Australians in particular but Australians of all ages, get the opportunity to get the skills that they want be it through a degree, be it through a TAFE course or an apprenticeship and which our economy really needs.

I’m very conscious every day that when we came into government Australia had the worst skills shortage in 50 years. Turning that around requires sustained effort and sustained investment. It also involves us recognising that we’ve got to take down some of the barriers that are preventing people from undertaking study.

MOORE: But if that’s such an issue and the Jobs Ready Graduates Program that the opposition introduced is such an issue, why not make the change? Why not fix the issues in this term? You’re essentially kicking the can down the road until the next election?

GILES: What the government that the Prime Minister leads has done throughout is taken a considered approach to the challenge of governing, and that is one of the reasons why Minister Clare has proposed and will be putting forward the Australian Tertiary Education Commission. So instead of having a reactive and ideological approach to these questions we have the opportunity to engage deeply and take a considered approach to what our economy needs and what individual Australians are seeing the challenges that they’re experiencing that may be preventing them from undertaking the course they want to take.

MOORE: But do you think the Jobs Ready Graduates Program should be wound back?

GILES: Well, I think we can look at some of the consequences of that, in particular, the cost of certain degrees. I think the way to do that, though, is to put in place a considered review of the process, not reaction.

MOORE: And is that something that you will only put in place if you win the next election?

GILES: Well, at the moment there are about six or seven months until the time that the next election will be called. One of the great disappointments but not surprises of the response of the opposition to the announcement that we made around these changes to take 20 per cent of student debt was to announce that they would oppose it even before the Prime Minister had delivered his speech detailing the changes.

In the Senate right now, there is an absolute logjam of important legislation on subjects like housing that we can’t get through. We’ve got to continue to deliver to Australians, but we’ve also got to be clear about what needs to be done by what longer term government, recognising –

MOORE: Sure, I understand that. But I guess just in relation to this scheme yourself, you’ve been critical of it. The government has been critical of it ever since you got into power. I think it’s only impacted around 1 per cent of enrolments in terms of actually influencing what people are studying. Do you really need an entire commission just around that Jobs Ready Graduates Program?

GILES: Well, Ali, it’s not just around that. That’s one of the many issues that they’ll be looking at, in particular, as they seek to bring together something that’s been talked together for a long time but not realised – a recognition that we need to bring the two parts of our higher education system – the university system and the trades, apprenticeship TAFE system – more closely together, because we recognise in this government that while nine out of ten jobs are being generated in the economy right now require a post-school qualification, half of them require a degree, the other half a trade qualification. That’s a message that we are keen to push across to elevate the level of TAFE and trades qualifications at the same time.

MOORE: So just in terms of the areas that you are focusing on – and I should say you’re listening to Andrew Giles, the Minister for Skills and Training, we’re talking about the government’s promised changes to education if they win the next election – but, Minister, just in terms of indexation, a number of people have been in touch with us since these changes were announced and say, “Well, why not address indexation?” I know you have, but you’re still indexing HECS debts either by the CPI or a wage price index, whichever is lower. And at the same time, you’re increasing the threshold when you start repaying, and the longer that debt sits there the bigger it is going to grow with indexation. So is there something that you can do or something more that you can do about indexation which can make a small debt become a big debt?

GILES: Well, I think, as you’ve acknowledged in your introduction to that question, that we’ve done quite a lot on indexation. This is another big change which obviously goes to the minimum repayments, not the maximum, of course. What we need to do across this system is to get the balance right, the balance right between supporting individuals who are often doing it tough and being responsible more broadly in terms of the management of the finances. And, again, that balance also goes to the individual benefit that’s being accrued versus the social benefit that we recognise on our side of politics that’s a big part of a university degree.

MOORE: What about HECS debts and how they interconnect with people’s bids to get home loans? That is another big issue for young people who are trying to get into the home loan market. They certainly can’t when it comes to mortgage serviceability. Is there anything that can be done to address that?

GILES: Well, I actually think that this package will play a significant role in that by taking 20 per cent off. It obviously is a big issue. We know that people are facing a number of issues when it comes to entering the housing market, and that’s obviously a big focus of our government and a big frustration that the Liberal Party and the Greens are not coming to the party when it comes to supporting our proposals in the Senate. But we are trying to do everything we can to address all of these cost-of-living pressures that are denying people the capacity to take those steps which are such fundamental ones to building a life.

MOORE: Taking 20 per cent off, though, is not going to do anything to help anyone with cost of living right now, is it?

GILES: Well, I think that’s not fair.

MOORE: But you pay back – you pay it back as a percentage of your salary –

GILES: Indeed.

MOORE: – not a percentage of the debt.

GILES: Indeed. But it is making a substantial difference we believe to the sort of choices that people are making. And certainly the response that I’ve got and I’m sure Minister Clare will be able to echo this much more strongly from students is this is a change that they are welcoming and embracing.

MOORE: You promised to make 100,000 Fee-Free TAFE places available every year, again if you win re-election. In Victoria how does that work? We already have a pretty extensive Fee-Free TAFE program. How much of that is funded by you? How much of that is funded by the state government? And does this commitment mean any more for this state?

GILES: Yeah, it’s a partnership. At the moment Victoria leads the way when it comes to Fee-Free TAFE, and what we are seeing now, what we have done under Minister O’Connor first was the National Skills Agreement that was entered into between the Commonwealth and every State and Territory. And part of that has enabled Fee-Free TAFE to roll out across the nation. At the moment that partnership is enabling 100,000 places a year. We’ve seen an extraordinary demand right around the country.

It’s also really important to recognise that these are the courses that people want to do but also courses that we know we need across the economy. Things like construction, things like obtaining digital skills, things like the care economy, nursing too. So what this will do is ensure that these arrangements are baked in for perpetuity with the Commonwealth partnering with the states going forward to ensure that at least 100,000 FreeTAFE places will be available every year from 2027.

MOORE: Minister, another issue, one that you’re well aware of as being in the public domain at the moment – the issue of flight upgrades. If you look at disclosures from the current parliamentary term, they reportedly show you received six upgrades. That’s the most of any frontbench minister or shadow minister. Why so many, and were they all offered and not sought?

GILES: Well, it’s my practice to fly economy on domestic flights. That probably fundamentally answers the first part of your question.

MOORE: What? Are you saying everyone else flies business?

GILES: Well, I’m responsible for my travel arrangements, not anyone else’s, Ali. But I made the decision when I was elected to parliament that within Australia I would choose to book and fly economy, and I should also say that I do so on the full range of airlines – Qantas, Virgin, Jetstar, Rex too.

MOORE: Sure.

GILES: On those occasions an upgrade was provided to me – not requested as disclosure makes clear – and I’ve disclosed those.

MOORE: Why do you think airlines upgrade you?

GILES: Well, again, that’s a matter for the airlines. I’m not placed to answer that question.

MOORE: You don’t think they might be looking for something in return?

GILES: Well, what they might be looking for is, of course, a matter for them. I guess for me and for all of my colleagues what we need to be very clear about is we make decisions based on the national interest, not on any private interest. And that’s fundamentally why we have a disclosure regime. It’s a regime that I certainly take very seriously, as I do my responsibilities more broadly.

MOORE: Andrew Giles, we appreciate your time. Many thanks.

GILES: Thank you, Ali.

ENDS