Interview with Adam Steer - ABC Radio Darwin Breakfast

ADAM STEER, HOST: You’re on ABC Radio Darwin, Adam Steer with you this morning. The Federal Government is set to cap new international student enrolments at $270,000 next year. The government says the move will bring numbers in line with pre-Covid levels, but it’s also about 50,000 fewer enrolments than last year. So, what does that mean for our own Charles Darwin University considering the Commonwealth handed the university a $250 million NAIF loan to help build – or $250, excuse me – I should say, a $150 million NAIF loan and then a grant of $100 million as part of the Smarter Cities deal, for a total cost of $250 million to build the CBD campus. That was designed to attract and increase the number of international students studying in Darwin. 

Andrew Giles is the Federal Skills and Training Minister. Minister, welcome to ABC Radio Darwin. 

MINISTER FOR SKILLS AND TRAINING ANDREW GILES: Great to be here. Great to be talking with you, Adam. 

STEER: The Senate’s Employment Legislation Committee tabled its report last Wednesday recommending the student numbers be passed in parliament. Will your government go ahead with the planned caps, and how confident are you of getting it through parliament? 

GILES: Look, we are hopeful that we can deliver what we’ve promised to do, which is managed growth when it comes to international education, recognising that it’s a really important export industry here in Darwin and right around the country too, but also recognising that we have more international students in Australia now than really ever before and what we’ve got to do is to get the balance right. That’s why we talk about managed growth so that every Australian can have confidence that the system is working in all of our interests. 

STEER: Well, let’s talk about the situation here at Charles Darwin University. As I was just saying, the Commonwealth through the NAIF loaned the university $151 million. At the same time, the Commonwealth also funded an extra $100 million through the Smart Cities deal. Now, this was with previous Liberal governments. $250 million in total to fund the CDU CBD campus. That campus’s business model is almost entirely based around the attraction and growth of international students studying in the top end, and then you say, “Sorry, there is a cap on the number of international students you can have.” It appears a bit like robbing Peter to pay Paul, doesn’t it? 

GILES: No, I don’t think that’s quite right. I think what we are trying to do – and I think the Senate committee report recognises this – is that it’s preferable to have certainty for businesses like universities to be able to think about what their options are into the future. At the moment we’ve been really relying on – and the universities have been very critical about the operation of immigration processing directives. What our approach will do is offer certainty in place of that. 

I’m looking forward to being with CDU later on this afternoon. I’m sure this issue will be raised. I look forward to hearing from them. But I think it’s in all of our interests to have an approach that delivers certainty and sustainability and continues that public confidence around how this important part of our export industry and our migration settings works. 

STEER: You can feel for the universities – for the university, particularly Charles Darwin University. I’ve spoken to the Vice-Chancellor about this. Great, well you’ve helped us build this big shiny new campus. By the way, you can’t have the students that you wish to come into that.

GILES: Well, we are very conscious that we’ve got to do the right thing by our universities, which are incredibly important. But the wider community can’t be ignored and all of the issues that are connected to this. What we have seen is a very, very large bounce back in international students, and we need to make sure that that is sustainable. That’s what this approach is all about, and I’m very pleased that that’s been recognised by the members of the Senate committee. 

STEER: Why are you capping international student numbers? 

GILES: Well, we need to make sure that we’ve got an approach to international education that meets all of the tests. One is to ensure that people from around the world can come here and get an excellent education at places like CDU. Another one is to make sure that we have our migration levels at appropriate levels so that the pressures that flow on across the community can be managed. 

STEER: International students, though, are not putting pressure on the housing crisis that we’re seeing across the country. That’s a furphy. International students staying in hotels, staying in student accommodation, they live in, you know, a small microcosm climate. 

GILES: Well, that’s not always the case. But I’d simply make the point that what we need to do is to deliver mechanisms that allow our universities to plan for the future with sustainability. That’s the approach that we’ve taken, rather than an unstructured and I would say unsustainable approach. 

STEER: The population challenge in the top end is profoundly different than it is on the east coast, Minister. We want and need more people here. We want a growing population. You’re capping international students. What are you doing in terms of helping boost the immigration here in the Northern Territory? That was your previous portfolio. What can we do to help boost the population in it top end of Australia? 

GILES: Yeah, look, that’s a really great question, and I think the last time we spoke was discussing some really important arrangements we put in place with the former government about ensuring that the Northern Territory can get the skills it needs, recognising that some of them come from overseas. That will continue to be the case. That’s been a big part of the territory’s story, and selling the wonderful lifestyle – the unique and wonderful lifestyle that’s offered here is something that’s pretty easy to do, I think. 

But it’s about getting the balance right. And I’d say the balance between my former responsibilities between finding migration solutions that meet the particular needs of this economy but also ensuring that Territorians, young Territorians, but also older Territorians, can get the skills they need to be part of this great and exciting economic story. 

STEER: What you’re leading there to is some of the TAFE courses, and the Fee-Free TAFE courses are being offered at the moment. What can you tell me about some of those opportunities, I guess, here in the top end of the Northern Territory?

GILES: Well, that’s exactly right. I’m really excited about what Fee-Fee TAFE is delivering. And there’s a really big national story, and everywhere you go it’s a human story, too. I’m excited that around 2,000 Territorians have taken up the opportunity of fee-free TAFE. And more than that – 

STEER: What does that mean – Fee-Free TAFE? 

GILES: It means that the costs that are normally associated with enrolment, the fee for enrolment in a particular course, are not paid by the student. It’s a huge cost-of-living issue. And it’s interesting – around the country I’ve been really excited to meet people who tell me the difference this has made to their lives. A group of women who are studying to become enrolled nurses in Loganlea Queensland who were telling me that this was something they’d always wanted to do but never been able to do. And a door has opened – a door in their lives but also filling a really critical role in our society and our economy. 

And when I look at the sort of things people in the territory have been enrolling in – construction, early childhood education and care – these are the jobs we need to get done. And to create this pathway is something that I’m really excited about. And I’m particularly excited about hearing about the experiences that those Territorians who’ve taken this leap. 

STEER: Well, I had a look at the Fee-Free TAFE courses briefly this morning because I was about to do this interview with you. I didn’t know anything about that. I mean, there are some – you can learn how to fly a drone, for example, for free, which is a lot of different employment opportunities you can get out of that. There’s education qualifications you can get, there’s business qualifications you can get. Is the government doing as well as they should or could in selling those Fee-Free TAFE courses? 

GILES: Well, what I would say is that we can always do better. When we came into government we inherited the largest skills shortage in 50 years, the second worst across all advanced economies. And I pay tribute to my predecessor Minister O’Connor, who put in place a series of reforms which are really taking root. There’s a report out today which demonstrates that the number of areas of occupations where there are shortages is reducing. But there is always more to be done. 

And the really exciting thing I’d say about this portfolio is that everything we do is about partnerships. It’s about a partnership to deliver Fee-Free TAFE with the Northern Territory government. I’ve been pleased to meet over the phone with the new Minister. I look forward to catching up with her face-to-face later today to make sure that we recognise in our work that Darwin is different to Sydney, that the territory’s needs are going to be different to those of Victoria. Getting that balance right and then finding ways to communicate it. 

My view, Adam, is the best way to encourage people is to tell the stories, to tell the stories of the people who have taken this choice, who have recognised that a TAFE qualification is a pathway, a passport, if you like, not just to a good job but to a good life, too. 

STEER: Terry says, “Morning, Adam. The free TAFE courses need to be based on demand for occupational skill sets where there are critical skill shortages. Free courses often don’t get completed or participants only want the skills that provided them with the opportunity to improve their job outcomes.” Are those free courses, are you changing them when you see the demands for those occupational sets move? 

GILES: Yeah, look, I’d say to Terry look at the courses that Territorians are enrolling in. Indeed, look around the country. The courses that are in the highest demand – and, again, these are courses where we’re choosing, working with state and territory governments – go to those areas where there are good jobs to be done. I think about early education and care, which I know has been a particular issue in Darwin for quite some time. A combination of the decisions the Albanese government has done about lifting wages and offering the cert III course fee-free has obviously been enticing people to make a career in something that perhaps they thought they couldn’t have done a little while ago. Construction is a big issue. Being part of the net zero transition, all of these things, and, of course, a Future Made in Australia, manufacturing jobs too. 

STEER: I want to briefly touch on the Guardian investigation into the international student industry in Australia, accusing universities of awarding qualifications to candidates who cannot understand basic English and are using AI and a few other things. I’ve spoken to tutors at some of the country’s most esteemed universities and can confirm that it’s happening. What are you doing about this? This must be a large concern, where students in journalism or communications degrees can’t speak English. 

GILES: Well, I won’t comment on the details of the investigation, but I will say that obviously the integrity of our student offer, whether it’s to a domestic student or an international student, is fundamental. Australians need to know that someone’s qualifications are exactly how they should be, and our providers of international education need to be able to demonstrate that they are providing high-quality learning. 

We’ve seen some pretty shocking examples, particularly, I have to say, under the former government. And the report that Christine Nixon did highlighted some really shocking abuses of international students, principally in aspects of the private VET sector where it seems that the courses were not being offered as advertised and were vehicles towards exploitation. 

STEER: Will you, though, be prepared to crack down on universities – I’m talking about universities and not those rogue private providers – where they clearly are not – they’re not prepared to release students that can’t speak English? 

GILES: Yeah, well, I would say that we need to ensure that the regulator is responding to all of these things. I’m confident they will be. You’ll appreciate these are responsibilities of my colleague Minister Clare, so I don’t want to go ahead of his response given that these are new reports at the moment. 

STEER: Minister, thank you so much for coming in today. Enjoy the new CDU campus. Are you seeing that this morning? 

GILES: Well, I think we’re not going to the campus this morning, but I am looking forward to having a look at it. 

STEER: Good on you, Minister. Thank you so much for your time today.

GILES: Great to be with you, Adam.