Doorstop Interview - Victoria

LAURA CASPARI, ENGIE: I’d like to introduce the Minister for Skills and Training, Andrew Giles, who’s here today with us to see the project and get to learn about Powering Her Pathway, which of course the Victorian Government support as well.

ANDREW GILES, MINISTER FOR SKILLS AND TRAINING: Thanks very much, Laura. It's really great to be here at this wonderful backdrop at ENGIE’s facility here in Hazelwood to officially launch the Powering Her Pathways project. Now, this is part of the Albanese Government's Future Made in Australia ambitions and a critical element of one the 20 projects that are funded through Building Women's Careers.

Now, this particular project is a partnership. It's a partnership that's been built from this community, for this community, but with a much broader application. It's a partnership that I want to recognise Gippsland TAFE, ENGIE, our host here today, and Women in Trades Australia, who've come together to recognise a couple of factors.

Firstly, that there are enormous opportunities in clean energy. We need 32,000 more workers in the industry by 2030 according to Jobs and Skills Australia. We also know this industry, like a range of others, is held back by gender segregation that's compounding these skills shortages. 

One in six workers in clean energy are currently women, only 6 per cent when we talk about trades [indistinct]. So this investment, this million dollar, just under a million dollar investment with the Commonwealth Government, is all about identifying more ways to get women into the industry and critically to keep them in the industry. 

To support people through training that works for them, but also to understand what are the barriers, what are the structural barriers that have been holding people back, and what are maybe some of the cultural issues that we need to change to make everyone can see a future for themselves in clean energy.

The battery that's our backdrop is a really big symbol of the enormous opportunities for the future in regional Australia for women in clean energy occupations. We recognise as a Government that we've got both an obligation to make sure that every occupation is equally open to every member of our community, but also to make sure that we're filling those skills gaps that are holding us back, and holding back both our net zero transition and all of the opportunities of Future Made in Australia.

I know that we've got Siobhan here who's walked this journey, a proud product of TAFE as well before getting in. So I'll hand over to her, but if there are any questions for me to deal with first.

JOURNALIST: How do you actually change cultural perceptions of women in energy industries?

GILES: Yeah, that's a great question, but I think it begins with two things. Firstly, by recognising that there's an issue, that there is a problem, that the distribution of the workforce means that people are not seeing equal opportunities to be part of it or to stay in the industry. 

The second thing is to prioritise listening, and I think that's a really big part of this project. Not just looking at what the data says, but listening to people who are in the industry right now, people like Siobhan, bearing witness to what's been their positive experiences and recognising that, and seeking to template that more broadly, but also understanding what have been the reasons people have left and seeking to address them.

We know that in a range of other industries - there's reporting today about some challenges in construction, about the need to be more flexible in our attitude to workplace practices and workplace culture. We need to understand that at a deeper level, and think about what government can do, what employers can do to turn this around.

JOURNALIST: Speaking on that, will you actually legislate any changes to employment to make workplaces more attractive?

GILES: Well, I think when it comes to legislation, we've got a really strong framework in the Fair Work legislation and indeed in the various anti-discrimination laws. 

The question is making sure that people see this as a lived reality, and also that we understand some of the barriers that may not be overt discrimination, but which are holding people back. Recognising too, as we stand here at Hazelwood, that some of the issues that may be impacting people in regional Australia may be felt more acutely than in the big cities. Access to childcare, things like that. 

Recognising all of the barriers, start times of work, finish times of work, flexibility of hours, issues like that may not be issues of legislation but may be impacting people’s ability to either get into an industry or stay.

JOURNALIST: The Government's been speaking a lot about productivity. Is this something that you could see benefits or boost productivity?

GILES: Yeah, for sure. I mean, training people up is obviously one of the best ways in which we can lift productivity and maintain our living standards. We've also got this big challenge that there's a drain on our economy, that we have these critical skill shortages in industries like energy. 

So by filling those skills gaps, we're not only doing the right thing by our energy industry and our energy sector, we're making possible more developments in other sectors of the economy.

Laura was speaking with much more authority than I could about AI and how AI is impacting how the energy distribution system works. If we're going to realise the opportunities and benefits of AI, we obviously need data centres. 

Those data centres need workers. Those workers, I'd like to see, should involve more women electricians and more women workers. So there's those spillover benefits across the economy as well as the direct productivity benefits from the trade you've been talking about today.

JOURNALIST: Touching on the productivity there, at the roundtable conference, a big part of it was enhancing productivity and you mentioned about upscaling Australia. Where does regional Australia factor in all of this?

GILES: Yeah, it's a huge part. So looking at the two elements of that question, clearly a big feature at the economic reform roundtable is thinking about productivity, in particular skilling Australians, building more adaptable, skilled workforce around the country. 

We recognise that's a particular challenge in areas where the geography has meant that access to training at whatever level hasn't been as available as for example in our bigger cities. We've made a range of decisions that recognise that already. Free TAFE has been taken up particularly by people in regional Australia and a big shout out to TAFE Gippsland who are here with us today. 

Things like the announcement we made quite recently about $31 million in Mobile TAFE, so that we can take training to where people are.

So recognising that regional Australia has enormous potential, particularly in the clean energy transformation, but the geography of regional Australia means that access to skilling means that we've got to think about it a bit differently and not simply assume that everyone can access a particular class at a particular time. 

Think about different modes of delivery, again, listening to people.

JOURNALIST: Gippsland is the first recognised offshore zone of the wind industry in Australia and you mentioned the potential that Gippsland holds. One of them is the offshore wind industry, but we don't have a clear timeline of when it will be completed. When do you think those jobs will come onto the sector so that women from this program could benefit off it?

GILES: Yeah, I know this is a big issue down here and obviously the State Government has made a recent announcement in that regard. I don't want to step on the toes of my counterparts there, but I'd recognise the broad interest in the community around those opportunities, making sure that obviously we are taking all the steps that we need to take to get there.

JOUNRALIST: And just speaking about that delay to the offshore wind auction, there was criticism aimed at the Federal Government for not supporting that auction through providing funding. Do you think that should have been done?

GILES: Look, you know, there obviously will be ongoing discussions between the two jurisdictions about this. Our national ambitions and the Victorian ambition is to realise net zero and all the opportunities will involve a lot of additional work. That's been recognised in the statements held out last week. I mean, my focus is really about making sure that we're doing everything we can to realise those opportunities.

For my particular portfolio of responsibilities, making sure that we've got the workforce to get there, and opening up the door for more Australians, more regional Australians, to play their part in this really important transformation.

JOURNALIST: I guess people are waiting to get into those industries, but we're seeing these delays. Doesn't it all link in?

GILES: Well, when I think about the challenges before me right now, it's about recognising that we need 32,000 more of [indistinct], and trying to find ways to attract more people, more women, more First Nations Australians into the pathway, and to make sure that they can access great training that works for them. That’s my focus right here and now, because that is absolutely fundamental to realising our national goals.

JOURNALIST: Minister, separately, like, you’re now focusing on women in clean energy sector, but there’s also big demand of just doctors in the regions. And one of the things that some spots in the medical industries have touted is that there are people from other countries who have that knowledge but are unable to use it. Is this something that your portfolio might be looking at in transferring those skills?

GILES: Yeah, definitely. I think we recognise that when it comes to our primary healthcare workforce, there has been and will continue to be a significant reliance on doctors whose training was overseas. 

That’s been a significant part of our skilled migration program for some time. I am concerned to make sure that every migrant who comes to Australia as a skilled migrant has every opportunity to work to their fullest potential. We know that there have been some issues in the past – some relate to skills recognition, some perhaps to attitudes and employers. 

I think it’s about making sure that we get the balance right between making sure that everyone who’s working in Australia is working to Australian standards, so we’ve got robust mechanisms in that regard, but also making sure that things happen more seamlessly.

My Department’s been doing a lot of work in this regard with Home Affairs. We made some changes to the migration regulations that assist particularly with more effective offshore recognition of skills. 

But I recognise that we’ve got more to do working with industry bodies to make sure, on the one hand, that someone who comes to Australia to practice their trade can do so effectively to the level that they want to, while at the same time assuring the Australian community that training, that the performance of that work is to Australian standards. I think we all understand how vitally important that is to medical professionals like GPs.

Thanks very much. We might hear, if it's okay, from Siobhan, who has a fantastic story that explains what this is really all about.

SIOBHAN KINMAN, ELECTRICIAN: Hi, I’m Siobhan Kinman. I'm a qualified electrician here, and I'm actually undergoing my second apprenticeship in instrumentation and control. It's been an interesting journey to get here. I didn't even know that you could be a tradie when I was younger. I think that we need more exposure. 

You can't be what you can't see, and when I met my first tradeswoman back in 2017 I thought, ‘whoa, this is amazing. I can't believe there's young women that can do this.’ And I was like, ‘why don't I have a go? Why don't I give it a go, research into something that I think that I might like?’ I've always been interested in clean energy, and it's something that is better for the environment but also part of some of my values as well.

So I reached out to TAFE Gippsland and did my free apprenticeship there, my fee free apprenticeship which is a Certificate II in Electrotechnology. I did that and got my foot in the door, and just kept applying everywhere I could go. 

Everywhere in the Valley I tried to apply, and I landed a job at one of the power stations down here, and it's just been an incredible journey. I've got a lot of support from both male and female in the industry. There's always going to be some sort of barriers, yes, but the amount of support that you have from people in the industry, people outside of the industry, people like Tradeswomen Australia, they've got your back.

And one of the greatest things about doing my apprenticeships and then becoming a tradesperson, I feel so accomplished. And it is doable, and probably one of my, the key advice that I would give to anyone, be it male, female, anywhere, just give it a go. Ask some questions, reach out to people who may already have a trade or may already be in the industry, and just soak everything in like a sponge. And say yes.

JOURNALIST: What's your experiences been like as a woman working in the energy industry?

KINMAN: That's an interesting question. I think when you put on your hard hat, you put on your high-vis, you put on your glasses, there's occasions where you're no longer, it's not about your gender. You are an apprentice and you're treated as an apprentice, so a lot of people will take your hand, train you up as you should be. 

And I think that's one of the messages – as soon as you put your hard hat on, you're one of them. And you've got to be safe and you have to learn as you go. There are some barriers that you will meet. Some people will see your gender or see your race, your looks, anything like that. I think some of the things that I've taken away from those experiences is that that's one in 50 people. 

And that's a lot of people, but you think about the 49 other people that have your back, that treat you as you should be, that treat you as a human being, that sort of outweighs any of those negative experiences.

JOURNALIST: I suppose that one in 50 people could influence others, other women, or dissuade them, I guess, from getting into the industry.

KINMAN: Absolutely.

JOURNALIST: How do we go about changing their perceptions?

KINMAN: That's also a very difficult question, because you can't really change someone's values. I think what's important is to call out behaviour that is not acceptable. And I think that putting it back on that one in 50 and going, well, if your daughter was in this, or son, sorry, your daughter or son was in this position, would you treat them the same way? 

How would you feel if they came home crying because they were treated this way? And sort of getting them, getting that thought process – actually, maybe this isn't correct, maybe that's not the acceptable behaviour.

JOURNALIST: Siobhan, women do bear a bigger responsibility in households, particularly when you have kids involved. And a lot of times women trying to find jobs in the energy sector worry that if they have a sick kid, they might not be able to go back. Is there flexibility in these sectors to accommodate that?

KINMAN: Absolutely. I'm actually a mother of two small children, and they've actually been sick recently. And I think one of the main things is open communication with your employer, and you have to have that two-way street. 

And people realise that you're not just there as a number. You're a human being. You have your life, you have your family, and I have come across so many good people in my industry that completely understands. They’re mothers, they’re fathers, they’re aunties, uncles – they completely understand. It is flexible, and you just have to be open in communication about it.

JOURNALIST: You mentioned how this was something you never even imagined, and that's a mindset that a lot of women would have.

KINMAN: Yes.

JOURNALIST: How do we change that? Where do we begin to change that?

KINMAN: I think I said earlier you can't be what you can't see. So having this exposure, seeing someone who is in a trade or who’s doing their apprenticeship is really important, I think, to see that. 

Especially young children when they’re going through their early high school and they’re thinking about what kind of career they want to do, having another, you’ve got your picture of your builders and you’ve got your picture of your doctors, and then you’ve also got your picture of your tradeswomen as well in there too. I think just inserting those types of things at an early age, it plants the seed that actually, I can be that person. I can be someone in a trade or someone in industry.

JOURNALIST: And Powering Her Pathway is a good way of doing that, but do we need it even earlier? Maybe in schools, perhaps?

KINMAN: Absolutely. I think Powering Her Pathway is extremely important, and I'm so excited to be here and to be a part of it. But definitely we need that exposure of, even in primary school, you know – what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be an astronaut. But what about the female astronauts that could be out there? It’s having both sides of the same coin. I mean, anyone can be anything as long as they want to be it, as long as they see it.

JOURNALIST: What would you have been doing if you didn’t have the opportunity to take an apprenticeship?

KINMAN: Honestly, I have no idea. I was mainly just working in retail and hospitality, but I wasn't happy and I didn't know, I didn't have a career path. I think once I found out what I wanted to do and where my skill set lies in being an apprentice, so learning on the tools as well as the theory, I realised that this is where I want to be. But I wouldn't have found that unless I saw that example of that first apprentice that I saw that was a female. And I honestly wouldn't be here if I hadn't met her.

JOURNALIST: So it highlights the importance of equal opportunity?

KINMAN: Absolutely.

ENDS